§ Mr. CostainI beg to move Amendment No. 2 in page 5, line 32, at the end to insert:
(d) for storing in the course of a trade or business anything which is to be or has been subjected to, or has resulted from, an industrial process carried on in the course of that trade or business.On Report we have had one up and one down; the Minister gives one Amendment and refuses the next; he has already made a further Amendment and I hope that is not an indication that he is going to turn this one down, because this one is only putting back into the Bill what was there when the Minister presented the Bill to the House on Second Reading. There must be a very good reason why a Bill which had already been considered in Committee and had had turned upon it the hot fire of debate in Committee should have been presented to the House with a provision for the exemption of warehouses. When we last got to Committee the Minister used his overwhelming majority—I will not go into the reasons how he got it, for it would be out of order now—to alter the Bill back. Basically, he had the Bill in the first place as we want it now to be.
Basically, what we are saying is that if a manufacturer wants to build a warehouse he should not have to go through the paraphernalia of getting a licence. Warehouses are not built for fun. Nobody builds a warehouse with the idea of over-stretching the economy. The difficulty I see about the control of warehouses is that a number of manufacturers do not wish to build warehouses in their factories—or they would like to avoid doing so. Every manufacturer is hopeful that when he has manufactured his products they will be delivered straight from his factory to the consumer or to the wholesaler. Manufacturers are always reluctant, particularly at the time of a credit squeeze, to build a warehouse.
§ 8.0 p.m.
§ No real argument was put forward in the debate in Committee for doing away with this, except the old one of control for control's sake. But, since then, we have had the example of a shipping strike. We have seen how easy it is for the ordinary flow of production from a factory to be held up for reasons outside the control of that factory or that of the client. It is on those occasions when warehouses are vital, to store goods being held up in the docks and to maintain them in good condition. When these crises arise, as I am afraid they will from time to time under the present Administration, it is essential to get a warehouse up quickly, because it is an unforeseen factor.
§ The reason for asking that warehouses should be exempt is simply that it will enable a manufacturer faced with that sort of situation to get busy and put up the temporary or permanent warehouse quickly without going through the rigmarole of getting licensing approval. The Minister has demonstrated how reasonable he will be about applications which are made to him, and we have no reason to doubt his sincerity.
§ I congratulate the Government Whips for persuading four Labour Members to remain in the Chamber. I am surprised that we have not had a single Liberal taking part in the debate, because I understand that a lot of them went into the Lobby against us on the last Amendment.
§ Mr. ChannonIs that not all the more extraordinary in view of the fact that they told us earlier that, although they liked the Bill, they were against the permanent nature of it?
§ Mr. CostainI am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. They also told us earlier all that they were going to do on Report; yet they have not bothered to come into the Chamber.
It seems to us to be absolutely unnecessary to bring warehouses back into control. The Minister had the right idea the first time, and we cannot understand why he has changed his mind. If he will accept the Amendment, I will sit down immediately, but I see that he shakes his head, so may I ask him to give better reasons than he did in Committee why that should not happen?
§ The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Public Building and Works (Mr. James Boyden)I will give some very good reasons why we cannot accept the Amendment. In the first place it does not do what the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Costain) wants. It would exempt all the storage accommodation of a manufacturing concern, wherever situated, but none of the storage accommodation of a concern wholesaling or retailing goods manufactured by someone else. It would discriminate unfairly in favour of a large concern which acted as its own wholesaler and retailer and, naturally, it would create anomalies.
I am sure that the hon. Member for Southend, West (Mr. Channon) will appreciate that and perhaps not be so keen on it. The storage accommodation of a concern which received a beverage in casks and bottled it itself would be exempt, whereas that of a concern which received the beverage already bottled would not.
However, the serious difficulty from the point of view of building control is that storage and warehousing should have no more priority than hotels. The hon. Gentleman spoke about educational and nursing establishments in his own constituency. I am sure that he would not rate warehouses and storage places over those.
There is a considerable quantity of applications coming forward. Out of 357 applications for projects costing £127 million received up to 1st July of this year, 53 were for storage projects costing £16 million. That means that storage projects represent about 15 per cent. of those subject to control.
Apart from the fact that the Amendment does not do what the Opposition want, it would create a very serious imbalance in the building control. So far, these projects have been looked at quite favourably. Forty-nine storage projects have been authorised, one has been refused and three are under consideration. But, from the point of view of the permanent nature of the control and its purpose—having an economic control for the country over the building industry—it is very necessary to include storage projects.
528 However, I have consulted my right hon. Friend and he agrees that we can give the assurance that, if there are emergency situations of the sort which the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe has been describing, we will take steps to see that applications are processed as rapidly as possible. We would expect the applicant to have taken the same sort of emergency steps to clear the planning permission, and, if it was a matter of the sponsor Department being concerned, to have got the sponsorship of the Department. If he came to us personally we would see that the staff processed his application as quickly as possible. I do not think that hon. Members have made any suggestion that the Department is not acting expeditiously, though, of course, there would have to be consultations with the regions.
I can give the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe that assurance, although I cannot give him an assurance on his Amendment because it creates these anomalies, and it is an important section of control. I hope that, with those half-sweet words, he will withdraw his Amendment.
§ Mr. Robert Cooke (Bristol, West)Before my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Costain) has another go at this, during the consultations which may take place with my hon. Friends, I hope that the Minister will not use this sledgehammer argument against our amateur efforts at drafting Amendments. I use the word "amateur" in its best sense. The Government have at their disposal all the expertise of the Parliamentary draftsmen, and it is up to the Opposition to try to embrace in simple words what they mean and what they think the House would like to put into a Bill. It is not much good the Government saying that it does not do what my hon. Friend says it does or wants it to do. If the Government wanted to accept the Amendment, they could always do something about it in another place.
I did not follow the Parliamentary Secretary's point on the contradictions about bottles stored indoors for personal use and bottles stored outdoors if they are to be sold for someone else. I come from a city where we go in very much for the storage of beverages both in and 529 out of doors. I think that the Government are making this too complicated.
The Minister gave an assurance, but it seems unnecessarily complicated. If we have to have these promises to the effect that everything will be all right, why have the control in the first place? Why not accept the Amendment?
§ Mr. ChannonThe Parliamentary Secretary made some flattering reference to me in the course of his remarks. I was listening to him with great care, and what he said seems to make no difference to any firm with which I am connected whether the Amendment is accepted or not. In view of his remarks, perhaps I had better declare a lack of interest in the Amendment; in fact, a disinterest.
The hon. Gentleman went some way towards helping us, but it is a bit hard when one remembers that when the Bill was first brought before the House in the last Parliament we were given a promise by the previous Minister that he would exempt warehouses.
It is no good the Parliamentary Secretary sticking on drafting points. We all know that unless my hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page) drafts every Amendment, we will not necessarily get them right. But that is a trifling excuse for the Government to attack us about. It means that they cannot think of anything else to say. It is clear what we intended to do, and it is perfectly clear what the former Minister was prepared to accept.
We have heard a lot from the Prime Minister in one of his more expansive
§ moods talking about forging a new Britain in the white heat of the scientific revolution. Here, the Minister is trying to make it more difficult to build warehouses and not less difficult. I cannot pretend that the Amendment is of fundamental importance to the working of the Bill.
§ Mr. Harry Randall (Gateshead, West)The hon. Gentleman should not get "het up".
§ Mr. ChannonI am not getting "het up". I am being remarkably calm. It is nice to see the hon. Gentleman here. Perhaps he will intervene later. We have not, until now, had a speech from a back bencher opposite, even from a sedentary position.
My hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Costain) made an unanswerable case for the Amendment. He made it clear that the intention is to exempt warehouses, which, as he said, are not built for fun, but because there is a need for them. The control which the Minister proposes to exercise, which his predecessor did not, and in fact gave the assurance that he would not, is a reprehensible step. Therefore, subject to what my hon. Friends say, I think that we should once more show our disagreement with the Government and divide the House on the Amendment.
§ Question put, That those words be there inserted in the Bill:—
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 117, Noes 197.
533| Division No. 97.] | AYES | [8.11 p.m. |
| Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Dodds-Parker, Douglas | Hutchison, Michael Clark |
| Bell, Ronald | Eden, Sir John | Iremonger, T. L. |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Eyre, Reginald | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) |
| Blaker, Peter | Farr, John | Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) |
| Braine, Bernard | Fisher, Nigel | Jopling, Michael |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith |
| Bromley-Davenport, Lt. Col. Sir Walter | Forrest, George | Kimball, Marcus |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Galbraith, Hn. T. G. | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | Kirk, Peter |
| Buck, Antony (Colchester) | Glyn, Sir Richard | Kitson, Timothy |
| Bullus, Sir Eric | Goodhart, Philip | Knight, Mrs. Jill |
| Campbell, Gordon | Goodhew, Victor | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry |
| Carlisle, Mark | Gower, Raymond | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) |
| Channon, H. P. G. | Grant, Anthony | Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Gurden, Harold | Loveys, W. H. |
| Cooke, Robert | Harris, Reader (Heston) | MarArthur, Ian |
| Corfield, F. V. | Harrison, Brian (Maldon) | McMaster, Stanley |
| Costain, A. P. | Harvie Anderson, Miss | Maddan, Martin |
| Crouch, David | Hawkins, Paul | Maginnis, John E. |
| Cunningham, Sir Knox | Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel | Marten, Neil |
| Currie, G. B. H. | Heseltine, Michael | Mawby, Ray |
| Dance, James | Higgins, Terence L. | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. |
| Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) | Hill, J. E. B. | Mills, Peter (Torrington) |
| Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) | Holland, Philip | Mills, Stratton (Belfast. N.) |
| Miscampbell, Norman | Percival, Ian | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Pink, R. Bonner | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Mauro, Hector | Pounder, Rafton | Wall, Patrick |
| Morgan, W. G. (Denbigh) | Pym, Francis | Walters, Denis |
| Murton, Oscar | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Nicholls, Sir Harmar | Ridsdale, Julian | Webster, David |
| Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) | Whitelaw, William |
| Nott, John | Roots, William | Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater) |
| Onslow, Cranley | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Osborn, John (Hallam) | Royle, Anthony | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth) | Scott, Nicholas | Wylie, N. R. |
| Page, Graham (Crosby) | Sharples, Richard | Younger, Hn. George |
| Page, John (Harrow, W.) | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) | |
| Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) | Stainton, Keith | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Peel, John | Stodart, Anthony | Mr. R. W. Elliott and |
| Mr. Jasper More. | ||
| NOES | ||
| Abse, Leo | Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | Miller, Dr. M. S. |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Ford, Ben | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) |
| Alldritt, Walter | Forrester, John | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) |
| Archer, Peter | Fowler, Gerry | Neal, Harold |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Fraser, John (Norwood) | Newens, Stan |
| Ashley, Jack | Gardner, A. J. | Norwood, Christopher |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) | Ginsburg, David | Oakes, Gordon |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. | Ogden, Eric |
| Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice | Gourlay, Harry | O'Malley, Brian |
| Barnett, Joel | Gregory, Arnold | Oram, Albert E. |
| Baxter, William | Griffiths, Will (Exchange) | Orbach, Maurice |
| Bence, Cyril | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Orme, Stanley |
| Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton) | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Oswald, Thomas |
| Bessell, Peter | Hamling, William | Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn) |
| Bishop, E. S. | Hannan, William | Owen, Will (Morpeth) |
| Blackburn, F. | Harper, Joseph | Park, Trevor |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) |
| Boardman, H. | Hazell, Bert | Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) |
| Booth, Albert | Heffer, Eric S. | Pentland, Norman |
| Boyden, James | Henig, Stanley | Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. | Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town) | Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E. |
| Bradley, Tom | Hooley, Frank | Price, Christopher (Perry Barr) |
| Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Hooson, Emlyn | Price, Thomas (Westhoughton) |
| Brooks, Edwin | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Probert, Arthur |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Hoy, James | Randall, Harry |
| Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W) | Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) | Rankin, John |
| Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Redhead, Edward |
| Buchan, Norman | Hunter, Adam | Rees, Meryn |
| Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) | Hynd, John | Rhodes, Geoffrey |
| Cant, R. B. | Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) | Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.) |
| Carmichael, Neil | Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Jeger, George (Goole) | Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth (St. P'c'as) |
| Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara | Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n & St. P'cras, S.) | Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.) |
| Coe, Denis | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Rose, Paul |
| Coleman, Donald | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Ross, Rt. Hn. William |
| Concannon, J. D. | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.) |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Sheldon, Robert |
| Cullen, Mrs. Alice | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Shore, Peter (Stepney) |
| Dalyell, Tam | Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne) |
| Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) | Judd, Frank | Silkin, John (Deptford) |
| Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) | Kenyon, Clifford | Silkin, S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Davies, Harold (Leek) | Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham) | Silverman, Julius (Aston) |
| Davies, Robert (Cambridge) | Lawson, George | Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) |
| Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) | Leadbitter, Ted | Slater, Joseph |
| Dempsey, James | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Small, William |
| Dewar, Donald | Lipton, Marcus | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Dickens, James | Lomas, Kenneth | Steel, David (Roxburgh) |
| Dobson, Ray | Lubbock, Eric | Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.) |
| Doig, Peter | Lyon, Alexander W. (York) | Stonehouse, John |
| Dunn, James A. | McBride, Neil | Swingler, Stephen |
| Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) | McCann, John | Symonds, J. B. |
| Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) | Macdonald, A. H. | Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.) |
| Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | McGuire, Michael | Thornton, Ernest |
| Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Maclennan, Robert | Thorpe, Jeremy |
| English, Michael | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) | Urwin, T. W. |
| Ennals, David | McNamara, J. Kevin | Varley, Eric G. |
| Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) | MacPherson, Malcolm | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) |
| Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) | Mahon, Peter (Preston S.) | Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley) |
| Fernyhough, E. | Manuel, Archie | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Mapp, Charles | Watkins, David (Consett) |
| Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | Marquand, David | Whitaker, Ben |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Mason, Roy | Whitlock, William |
| Millan, Bruce | Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) |
| Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) | Winstanley, Dr. M. P. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Willie, George (Edinburgh, E,) | Winterbottom, R. E. | Mr. Charles Grey and |
| Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) | Mr. William Howie. |