HC Deb 27 April 1966 vol 727 cc908-18

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Lawson.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. Would hon. Members leaving the Chamber please do so quietly? They may have an Adjournment debate themselves some day. Mr. Tam Dalyell.

1.3 a.m.

Mr. Tam Dalyell (West Lothian)

This Adjournment debate, which is symbolic of much that we have been talking about, has its origin in the desperation of housewives—the desperation of housewives whose curtains are ruined, the desperation of housewives whose newly-bought furniture is in various stages of decay, the desperation of housewives whose youngsters' clothes are rotting away with mildew in cupboards, the desperation of housewives who pay rent for a four or five-apartment house and find that one or two apartments are unusable on health grounds, the desperation, too, of families, who may have waited for years for a house and who find that they are cheated by damp of enjoying the benefits of their new house.

My purpose in raising the subject tonight is not to castigate this or that local authority or to pour abuse on certain builders. My purpose is to ask the Government to look again at a nationwide problem which has become all the graver this winter, characterised, as it has been, by the absence of a span of low humidity. Though reasons for condensation are many, in the interests of coherence I ought to be specific about some of the causes of distress and then end by asking for an action programme.

First, some changes in ways of living tend to increase the humidity of the air in a house or flat. In particular, clothes are commonly washed in the kitchen or bathrooms, and probably dried indoors as well. Trends in design are largely responsible for this; sculleries and outhouses that would keep steam away from the rest of the house are seldom provided nowadays.

Secondly, there has been a trend to increase the number of rooms without flues, and permanent ventilation of flueless rooms by other means is not commonly provided. Flueless oil- and gas-burning appliances are in more widespread use, and the main product of combustion is water vapour, which is emitted into the air within the building. This can be extremely confusing for those who have been used to the natural draughts of a coal fire to dry the atmosphere.

Thirdly, solid floors without an insulating floor finish suffer from condensation because they are slow to warm up, and "cold bridges" such as thick concrete lintels can also be a source of trouble. This, in part, could account for one's observation that the worst affected flats are often those in the block next to the major staircase.

Fourthly, and finally in my examples, it is nowadays more common for dwellings to remain unoccupied during the day, often without background heating, with a sudden rise in temperature and humidity during the evening. It is a familiar and understandable family situation that the mother and father are out working, with the children at school taking their mid-day meal either at school or at their granny's. Mother has to do the washing at night, air temperature drops in the morning and creates significant moisture.

These are basically ordinary problems of simple physics. I could put forward concisely a programme for action. It strikes me that the Government could help the local authorities even further by publishing an easily understood booklet of what to do and what not to do—the Parliamentary Secretary might well tell me to distribute rather further some of his Ministry's existing admirable literature—for the benefit of the housewife and the layman who are probably not any great shakes at physics and who are moving out of a house with two or three chimneys to a modern all-electric or centrally-heated house or flatlet. A simple pamphlet should not go into too great detail about, for instance, the physics of gaseous states. It should be simple and easily comprehensive.

But, in my view, a booklet is not sufficient. Local authorities could make no better human investment than in a sensible soul on their staff. She need not be an Einstein or a Cockcroft, but could go round in a chatty way and explain the do's and don't to young housewives as they move into for what, for them, is in most cases a new kind of house. She should be some sort of sympathetic character who realises that the generation of water vapour is difficult to control when one has a young family; and that women must be warned of the dire consequences of spreading nappies to dry on the floors of under-floor-heated houses.

For example, it should be explained to housewives that condensation does not always occur in the room where the moisture vapour is produced; much of the moisture vapour in a home is produced in the kitchen, and it drifts from there to the colder parts of the house, such as the stair well and bedrooms, and causes condensation on the cold surfaces there. At times it may cause dampness in bedding and other soft furnishings. A local authority employee who could explain this in a simple and friendly manner could surely persuade most families of the importance of keeping a reasonable temperature in bedrooms.

I suggest that school domestic science classes have a part to play. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will raise this matter with the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Secretary of State for Education and Science. A simple course on the heating and ventilation of the home, describing the ordinary physics of damp and condensation, should be part of the curriculum for any pupil before he or she leaves school. Architects should be prevented from designing unnecessarily large windows. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will agree that the Scandinavians have proved that too much glass makes heat loss rather difficult to counter. If houses are left empty during the day there should be some kind of heat input, either council background heating or tenant-controlled.

I am also concerned about insulation. Here, as the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland will recognise, our Scottish standards are rather higher than those of England. Even so, it is not sufficient to have lining in walls. We should look at the experiments conducted in the north-east of England, which the Parliamentary Secretary knows well, as to the matter of double glazing. If the Government could do something to lower the number of varieties of double glazing, it is my information that they would reap the benefits of economies of scale and in the next year or two the double glazing of windows could go out in the form of a Government recommendation to local authorities.

In Scotland it seems that there is a case for altering some of the ventilation regulations. Many families may find it too cold to open a whole window at night, but if there were a regulation hopper window at the top, many families would open it. This fact assumes significance when one recalls that a sedentary person breathes out roughly one pint of water every 10 hours. This makes the introduction of easier ventilation all the more important.

I am conscious that my concern so far has been less with the dwelling itself than with the use of the dwelling. For this I make no apology. While in no way blaming tenants, it is probably true that 70 per cent. of the difficulty arises from the use of the dwelling. However, I do not doubt that constructional matters are also important. Here I have three questions. Is not water penetration often due to inadequate design? Would the Minister agree that the Building Research Station standards of four years ago are not altogether satisfactory? Should not more time and money be spent on details of the job, particularly on the lead work?

I must be very brief because the hon. Member for Aldershot (Sir E. Errington) wishes also to take part in this debate. I am against penalties because it seems that they superimpose relatively complicated clauses on legal contracts. Nor am I in favour of incentives, because all they do is to get builders to do what they are already under contract to do. This is not a very satisfactory system.

I end on one desperate and urgent problem. It is the problem which is faced by the existing tenant in a house with a dose of damp or condensation or mildew or fungus already in it. There is a case for the Government considering what help they can give to those local authorities which desire to rehouse temporarily tenants who are in these existing appalling conditions. Here is a very grave problem. Certainly from many houses I have seen, not only in West Lothian but elsewhere, I rather doubt if a meaningful remedy can be found for these problems unless a month or two is taken for the reconstruction of the house or flat at a time when the tenants are out of it and have been temporarily housed elsewhere. I realise that this costs money and that some local authorities may find it very difficult, but there is an argument for the Government to look at this nationwide problem.

1.15 a.m.

Sir Eric Errington (Aldershot)

I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for calling me. I want to speak for a few minutes on the question of condensation. The hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) has suggested that instructions ought to be given about these houses which we are discussing. I do not think that that is the correct way to deal with the problem. I believe that there must be much further investigation. Our experience in Aldershot of the building of married quarters, about which the Minister knows something, has not been satisfactory. I admit that there have been slight improvements as a result of reducing the window space—there is little doubt about that—but generally speaking there is a return of this mould which is due to damp, and nobody seems to know how to stop it. If anybody does know, he certainly has not conveyed the information to the tenants.

I had an opportunity during the election of going round a number of houses and, as I say, there was some improvement, but it was very small. I should like to know whether anybody at the Ministry really knows the answer to these problems. It may be said that if a house is left during the daytime this condition may get worse. But, after all, a house has got to be left sometimes. People go out and leave their houses empty. The question whether there is condensation should not depend on that.

My plea is that we should be told what is the cause of this condition. We should be told whether it is possible to do anything more to prevent this continuing as badly as it does, and the onus should not be put on the tenant, or the soldier and his wife. The problem should be considered and an answer should be found which is satisfactory and clear to everybody. If this is not done there will be continued dissatisfaction with these buildings. I hope the Minister can give us a satisfactory answer.

1.18 a.m.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Public Building and Works (Mr. James Boyden)

I am grateful for the way in which my hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) and the hon. Member for Aldershot (Sir E. Errington) have stated this case. If I cannot cover all the details that were raised I shall certainly write to them and explain what I can.

The basic trouble in many forms of construction is the old-fashioned one that wet construction needs time to dry out, and people do not often appreciate that it takes as long as a year. In a year like the one we have just had, the extra dampness in the air makes it even more difficult than is the case in normal circumstances. However, mould growth is a very irritating and unpleasant thing for the householders and the Ministry of Public Building and Works is very conscious, as is the Building Research Station, of the troubles that it gives rise to.

The incidence in recent years has probably had more publicity than in previous times because of the rising standard of householders in what they expect, and certainly in the experience of the Building Research Station this last winter has been one of the worst for condensation because of the atmospheric humidity which has been consistently higher than the average. I know that does not explain the case raised by the hon. Member for Aldershot, which was well before that, but this has been one of the particular difficulties in the current year.

There are three main causes of humidity in building. One, to which my hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian referred, is faulty design. This is not always the fault of the architect. Sometimes it is the fault of the client in having too strict a cost limit or in having an inadequate specification. But this sort of cause due to faulty design or poor specification can be seen in, for example, bad detailing of joints which allows water to penetrate from the outside, in inadequate damp-proofing membranes, or in the use of unsuitable materials such as tile-hung walls where there is the danger of damage caused by children playing. My hon. Friend referred to awkward windows as another cause, and in that I include large windows without ventilators or small pieces which can be opened. Householders are unlikely to open a large window all the time or in bad weather. Equally, a small fault like an awkward catch which the housewife cannot reach or even an awkward catch which does not open easily may often result in a window not being opened and, therefore, not providing adequate ventilation.

Another serious cause is inadequate heating, especially when there has been a change from ordinary coal fires to some form of central heating. Quite often in these cases, the central heating is not used properly, and flueless oil heating, paraffin oil heating, is used as a supplement or as an economy One pint of oil burned produces one pint of water. It is 10 times more water-making than the breath of the human occupants to which my hon. Friend referred.

Another set of causes is the old-fashioned one of bad workmanship, very often associated with inadequate site control. Components are damaged on the site and are put up damaged, or they are damaged as they are being put up and then not put right. Misalignment of joints is another cause. Woodwork is left out in the weather until it is soaked and then not properly dried off before being put into the building. A very common source of trouble is caused by workmen filling cavities in cavity walls above the damp-proof course with rubbish and mortar.

I emphasise how important site management is throughout the building industry. It is matter of more general concern than this particular problem, though it affects it. I hope that more attention will be paid to site management.

Mr. T. W. Urwin (Houghton-le-Spring) rose—

Mr. Boyden

I must press on. I have a great deal to answer.

Misuse by the occupants is quite a common cause. I have spoken of problems created by heating methods and the failure to ventilate rooms which are not in use. My hon. Friend spoke of the need for housing managers and builders to let occupants know what they should do about central heating, condensation and so on. Progressive local authorities usually have a booklet which they issue to new tenants, and some have enough staff in the housing manager's department to be able to visit homes and explain to people coming into new houses, particularly new system houses, what they should do. The N.F.B.T.E. issues excellent pamphlets in encouraging good relationships between builders and clients in the private sector. Sometimes the damage is caused by inadequate reporting from the tenants of council houses.

All these three groups of causes give rise to dampness and condensation which is not easily cured but which can be put right if the cause is ascertained early enough.

It has been suggested that the Building Regulations are not adequate. The Regulations, of course, provide only a minimum standard. I will now refer briefly to the parts of the Building Regulations which deal with dampness. I can do no more than give the references, but I hope that that will be helpful to my hon. Friend. Rain penetration is covered in Part B of the Regulations, particularly Regulation B3, and Part C, particularly Regulations C8 and C10. Rising ground moisture is dealt with in Part C, particularly Regulations C2, C3 and C6. Condensation is dealt with in Part F, Regulations F3, F4 and F5. Regulation K3 specifies the sizes and positions of ventilation openings. I mention these because these are the essential parts of the Building Regulations which prescribe these minimum requirements.

I agree with my hon. Friend that the penalties in contracts, which can be specified by the client and the architect, are not a very effective way of doing any of the progressive things that we want in the building field. Good supervision and good application to the basic principles is what is required. There always is, of course, the question of retention money and the maintenance period which enables the client to exercise some compulsion.

Sir E. Errington

Would it be possible to have the booklet setting this out? The ordinary tenant does not know where he stands.

Mr. Boyden

As I say, some local authorities do this.

Sir E. Errington

What about the military authorities?

Mr. Boyden

Yes, indeed. This is something to which I shall come in a moment so far as publicity is concerned. I am rushing it a bit, but I want to come to that. I have taken notice of what has been said on both sides of the House.

I want to make the basic point that it would be wrong to blame any particular system of construction for these difficulties. Obviously, industrialised systems and lightweight systems have some particular features, but it would be quite wrong to blame system-built houses as having qualities that are less satisfactory than traditional houses.

I was asked whether there was a need for more research. The basic physical ideas of condensation and generation of mould are well known, and the problem is more of getting over the information that is known rather than research into new fields. If I may give some examples of where there is a good deal of publicity, the Building Research Station has a series of leaflets, which are intended more for the builder than for the tenant. I have sent a set of copies to my hon. Friend. My Department is publishing a series of advisory leaflets, two of which are on dampness in buildings and condensation, and a new one is about to be produced on condensation.

I think that it is very much for consideration—I hope that this will shortly come about—that the Building and Civil Engineering Research and Information Association, which we hope is about to be formed, will take on board this kind of topic. We badly need in the building and construction industry a regionally based advisory service which will do the sort of thing that my hon. Friend has spoken about. It will advise the builder—not so much the tenant—who, in his turn, will have all the information about it. We hope that it will not be very long before this Association is set up.

I undertake to look at whether it is desirable—and whether it can be done; I think it can be done—to make some case studies of particular condensation failures which one could classify into certain groups. My hon. Friend referred to the Tipton conference in conversation with me. That conference could not find any one cause of dampness in buildings, and each individual council was going to look at its particular problems. But it will probably arise from our own experience in the Ministry and from local authority experience that we can put together some useful studies which will be of use largely to the housing owners—that is, the local authorities—and to the Service Ministries, and so on, as a result of which they will be able to avoid this trouble in the future. These two activities I undertake to look into. I cannot, of course, promise straight off, because these affect other Ministries—the Scottish Office and the Ministry of Housing and Local Government—as well.

All these things are really only a series of attacks on the particular problem that we have. I just have time, I think, to refer to the question of Aldershot, where a very thorough investigation has taken place. I was not as active as the hon. Member for Aldershot in this matter but I have taken an interest. The Department has gone into the problem thoroughly. One set of maisonettes has been improved; they have gone through the winter and have been found satisfactory. Another series is in the process of being done and is likely also to prove satisfactory. One patio house has been done as a test of whether the remedies the Department is applying are right. It, too, has gone through the winter satisfactorily.

Work on the patio houses is about to take place and it looks as if the problem has been solved technically. It remains now to complete the work on the maisonettes and patio houses on the basis of past experience. I hope that, in the course of the next 12 months, the hon. Member for Aldershot will be able to give a clean bill of health to Aldershot in this respect. If there are any further points I have missed, I will write to my hon. Friend and to the hon. Gentleman.

The basic problem is really to do well what is known. Nearly all the problems of design, workmanship and site control are well known and can be dealt with satisfactorily. Then there is the education of tenants in using new materials and central heating and ventilation. This problem is known to progressive housing managers but it is a matter of getting the information across.

I certainly undertake to look at the literature we have from the Building Research Station and from my Department, to see what other literature we can produce and to consider whether we can make improvements. The sort of conference held at Tipton is very useful and this, too, is a matter that I shall look at.

Question put and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at twenty-eight minutes to Two o'clock.