HC Deb 16 June 1965 vol 714 cc425-8
12. Mr. Peter Mills

asked the Minister of Transport to what extent, in authorising the British Railways Board to incur capital expenditure on liner trains, he took into account the results of experimental liner train services already run by the Board; and what have been the loads and speeds of these trains.

Mr. Tom Fraser

There have been no experimental liner train services as such. The operational and technical trials now in progress began after investment in liner trains was authorised.

Mr. Mills

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that if he wants to make his name as a really successful Minister of Transport, one way by which he can do it is to introduce liner trains now and make them a reality? Will he also bear in mind that if he does not do something fairly soon, much of this traffic will be permanently lost to road transport and will never come back to the railways?

Mr. Fraser

I think that the hon. Gentleman is wrong in thinking that it can be done now. The vehicles have to be constructed. The terminals have to be constructed. There is a lot of physical work to be undertaken at the present time. The Railways Board is getting on with the job as fast as it can and it is getting on with its salesmanship to get the traffic on to the liner trains when they are ready to start.

Mr. Mapp

Divorcing this subject from the train manning side, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he will be satisfied about the costing of the experimental or pre-runners of liner trains? Is not there also a danger that the common stock of railway wagons might be replaced by a specialised form of stock which will have limited value, and which, in the event of the loss of new traffic, will not be interchangeable? Will my right hon. Friend call in special advice on the costing of these trains, particularly on the terminal and servicing aspects of them?

Mr. Fraser

I think that it would be a mistake on my part to call in special advisers to give me advice on this matter. After all, there are a lot of special advisers in the pay of the Railways Board, and special advisers in the pay of the Ministry of Transport. I do not think that we want to triplicate this kind of provision.

It seems to me that all those who have studied this matter are satisfied that the liner trains will succeed in attracting a very considerable volume of traffic which is now carried on the roads. They will do so only if new specialised railway vehicles are constructed for the purpose. These vehicles are now being constructed in the railway workshop at Derby, and I do not think this would be a proper time for me to have a review of the whole principle underlying the substitution of the existing stock of vehicles by these new ones.

Mr. Powell

Arising out of the right hon. Gentleman's previous Answer, may I ask whether he has been advised approximately when we can expect the first of these services to be put into operation?

Mr. Fraser

When, just after Easter, I gave my approval to the investment required for the introduction of the liner train service, the Railways Board said that it would take about six months from then to get the trains started. The Board has not amended that forecast.

20. Mr. Goodhew

asked the Minister of Transport what further progress has now been made with the introduction of liner trains for the carriage of freight on British Rail.

Mr. Tom Fraser

The British Railways Board informs me that it is pressing forward with the construction of freightliner wagons, containers and terminal facilities. Technical and operational trials started some time ago and are progressing satisfactorily.

Mr. Goodhew

Is the Minister aware that in a Written Answer on 3rd May he said that the Executive Committee of the National Union of Railwaymen was convinced that to proceed with liner trains with open terminals would be detrimental not only to the interests of the country but to British Railways, and that it thought it best that the first routes should be drawn up on the terms laid down by the union. Is the Minister going to give in to the N.U.R. on this matter, or will he take the view that it is a question of making British Railways efficient—a question in which the British public are very interested?

Mr. Fraser

The Answer which I gave, which has been quoted by the hon. Member, was in answer to a Question asking me what representations the Executive Committee of the N.U.R. had made to me before I made my decision. This was not something subsequent to my making my decision; I made my decision in the light of the propositions already made to me by the Executive Committee. I am hoping that the discussions which have been going on for a long time between the N.U.R. and the Railways Board will continue, and that at the end of the day wise counsels will prevail.

Mr. Powell

As the Minister took his decision and gave his authorisation on the basis that the terminals would be open to all road hauliers, does he now expect that that basis will be in existence in time for the services to start, as he indicated, six months from his announcement last April?

Mr. Fraser

I expect that agreement will be reached between the union concerned and the Railways Board. It has always been my hope that the management and workers would come together and that we could have the trains operated with open terminals. I would point out that those who are anxious to get these trains operating with open terminals might exercise a little discretion in the attacks they make upon the union representatives.

Mr. Popplewell

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the N.U.R. Executive and the members of the union as a whole are anxious that these liner trains should be put into operation as speedily as possible? Is he also aware that the only outstanding question with the N.U.R. is the refusal of the Railways Board to compete for this traffic which is being handed over to private road hauliers? Is he aware that if the Railways Board competes on proper competitive terms for this traffic there will be no trouble from the N.U.R.?

Mr. Fraser

I have never rested my transport policy on competition, as my hon. Friend is now suggesting. I want proper co-ordination between the different forms of transport, and that will be secured only by having open terminals for liner trains. I do not want to have to arbitrate in these matters; it is better that politicians should keep out, and that the two sides of the industry should come together and, as adult people, sit down and discuss the best way in which these trains can be introduced.