HC Deb 27 April 1965 vol 711 cc319-22
Mrs. Hart

I beg to move, in page 5, line 39, after "up", insert "from their own number".

We move on now to matters concerning the Investigating and Disciplinary Committees. In Amendment No. 19 in the name of the right hon. Member for Argyll (Mr. Noble), there is an attempt to cover much the same point as is covered by this Amendment, with the addition of a further point. During the Committee stage discussions the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. Hendry) moved an Amendment identical with the one on the Notice Paper today. It was withdrawn on an undertaking given by me to consider the point.

Here there are two points involved. One is whether the Disciplinary Committee should consist entirely of members of the Council. The other is whether we should prescribe the number of members on the Committee.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

Order. It will assist the House if the hon. Lady leaves the discussion on the second Amendment which has to be called, Amendment No. 19, referring to numbers, until we reach it.

Mrs. Hart

With respect, the second Amendment is to be moved by the right hon. Member for Argyll.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

That is not my point. We cannot now take the two Amendments together.

Mr. Noble

Would it be for the convenience of the House, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, if we discussed Amendment No. 19 with this Amendment and thereby got the hon. Lady out of her difficulty?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

If that is the view of both sides of the House, I have no objection.

Mrs. Hart

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. I think that we were involving ourselves in some little trouble.

We regard the restriction on membership of the Committee to members of the Council as being entirely acceptable. We intended throughout that the Disciplinary Committee should consist only of members of the Council. Clearly it was not stated sufficiently explicitly in the Bill, but this Amendment provides explicitly that only members of the Council shall be members of the Disciplinary Committee.

We do not consider it appropriate that their number should be prescribed in the way proposed in the Amendment in the name of the right hon. Member for Argyll. I agree that there are precedents for this in the case of the disciplinary committee set up under the Solicitors (Scotland) Act, 1933, but there is no limitation on the numbers for similar committees appointed under the Professions Supplementary to Medicine Act, 1960. The General Medical Council limits the membership of the Disciplinary Committee to the president and 18 other members, but imposes no limit on the membership of the Penal Cases Committee. We think it sensible and right that the Bill should provide that only Council members should be appointed to the Disciplinary Committee, but we think it sensible to leave the precise number to the good sense of the Council. This is one of those questions where it would be unwise to seek to circumscribe the General Teaching Council by imposing a particular requirement. The Council will be able to make sensible and wise decisions and we think that to prescribe the membership to its own members is as far as Parliament should take the matter. The rest should be left to the good sense of the Council.

Lady Tweedsmuir

We are grateful to the hon. Lady for this Amendment. We are disappointed that she has not seen fit to accept the content of Amendment No. 19. Would she be good enough to give an indication, so that it may appear on the record, of the number of persons she thinks it would be advisable for the Council to appoint to the Committee? The fears expressed during the Committee stage discussions were very real. Normally, when we find it necessary to have an investigating or disciplinary committee concerning one part of the country, there might be too many people appointed who are concerned with that district. While it is necessary that there should be certain people with local knowledge, it is surely also necessary that there should be others from a more independent standpoint, who can regard the circumstances without the local feelings which are always very prevalent on occasions such as this. Therefore, while we thank the hon. Lady for the first Amendment and will not press the second, I would ask her, before we finally incorporate the Amendment into the Bill, whether she would give an indication of the size of committees which she would like to see.

Mrs. Hart

I am afraid that I cannot satisfy the noble Lady completely. The difficulty is that the right size of committee is one which is small but not too small and not too large. The Wheatley Committee made no precise recommendations. The Committee thought it right to leave it to the discretion of the Council. That being so, I think that it is right that this House should also leave it to the discretion of the Council.

Amendment agreed to.