HC Deb 19 March 1964 vol 691 cc1570-2
22 and 41. Mr. Brockway

asked the Secretary of State for Industry, Trade and Regional Development (1) what licences have been refused for the export of arms to the Republic of South Africa in consequence of the decision of Her Majesty's Government to limit the export of arms to purposes of external defence;

(2) what licences have been granted for the export of Westland Wasp antisubmarine helicopters to the South African navy.

Mr. du Cann

It is not the practice to disclose details about licence applications for the export of arms and military equipment. As regards Wasp helicopters, I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation on 2nd March to the hon. and learned Member for Ipswich (Mr. D. Foot).

Mr. Brockway

I thank the hon. Member for answering at the same time Question No. 41, which is quite low on the Order Paper. If it is not possible for him to give the detailed specifications of orders, can he give the number of licences which have been refused, in view of the Prime Minister's statement that arms which can be used to further apartheid will not be supplied? In view of the fact that £90 million is to be expended on military equipment to South Africa from this country over a three-year period, cannot the hon. Gentleman at least say how much has been refused in order to prevent any oppression under the policy of apartheid?

Mr. du Cann

I am obliged for the compliment contained in the first part of the hon. Member's supplementary question. The whole House takes his point. As for the main part of the question, it has been the long-standing and well-known practice of successive Governments not to disclose details of arms exports and export licences. We believe this to be sound practice, and we do not intend to depart from it, so my answer on this question is "No". As for our policy in relation to the export of arms to South Africa, that has been clearly announced in this House and in the United Nations.

Sir T. Moore

Is my hon. Friend aware that this vendetta against our good friends in South Africa, at the behest of Ghana and others, is singularly repugnant to all fair-minded people in this country?

Mr. du Cann

I agree that it is extremely important to preserve a sense of proportion in the matter.

Mr. Gordon Walker

As the hon. Member gave us fairly close details about the export of arms to the Yemen the other day, can he say why the Government draw this sharp distinction between the kinds of arms which they will give us information about and the kinds which they will not? Can he answer the question that I asked the Price Minister the other day, whether helicopters are included in the schedule to the Simonstown Agreement on arms which we have undertaken to supply?

Mr. du Cann

The right hon. Member suggests that there is a conflict between the Answer I have given and the Answers given by the Prime Minister and the Minister of Aviation a day or two ago, but there is no conflict. As for the second part of the supplementary question, if the right hon. Gentleman will be good enough to put down a Question I will do my best to answer it.

Mrs. Castle

Is not the hon. Gentleman's answer quite absurd? Is it not a fact that we have been called upon by the United Nations to uphold this arms embargo, and that we have been asked to supply information to the United Nations about the extent to which we are carrying out resolutions, some of which we have supported? How can this House know whether or not the Government are operating the policy they say they are if they refuse us information which is necessary to enable us to judge?

Mr. du Cann

I can assure the hon. Lady that the supply of the helicopters is in accordance with our policy, as stated in the United Nations.

Mr. Brockway

Will the hon. Member answer the question which I put to him? I asked whether he could give me specific details about the number of orders and whether he could state the numbers and the value those numbers represent? That would not give away any secrets or affect national security.

Mr. du Cann

The answer is "No", for the reasons which I have given.

Mr. Brockway

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall endeavour to raise this matter.