HC Deb 20 November 1963 vol 684 cc992-5
The Minister of Labour (Mr. J. B. Godber)

The Government have considered the situation arising from the claim for increased pay and improved working conditions for the operating staff of the London Transport Board's road services, and the difficulties the Board is facing in the manning of these services. The Government have decided that there is a need for a comprehensive review of pay and conditions in the light of the problems facing public road transport in the London area.

For this purpose the Minister of Transport and I are jointly appointing a Committee of Inquiry. The terms of reference are: To review the pay and conditions of employment of the drivers and conductors of the London Transport Board's road services in the light of the Board's manpower requirements for those services, the Board's statutory responsibilities, the working and operating conditions in London traffic, and the likely repercussions of any changes on other employments paying due regard to the possibilities of increasing the efficiency of London Transport's road services and to the considerations affecting national economic growth; and to report. I am glad to say that Professor E. H. Phelps Brown has agreed to act as Chairman of the Committee. I hope to announce the names of the other members shortly.

The London Transport Board and the Transport and General Workers' Union have been informed of the Committee's appointment.

The Minister of Transport and I want the Committee to open its inquiries at a very early date and to complete them as soon as the scope of their remit allows. This being so, the Government expect that there will in the meantime be a return to normal working.

Mr. Gunter

I am sure that the whole House will welcome the step which has been taken to bring to an end the appalling mess in London. I would only say that I have the belief that the busmen of London will respond, even though they have suffered injustice for far too long, in the hope that at long last justice will be done to them. I have the belief that they will now respond as the Minister has suggested.

There are two or three questions which I should like briefly to ask the Minister. The first is the important question whether the conclusions of this Committee of Inquiry will become the subject of discussion and agreement within the normal machinery of negotiation which exists between the unions and the London Transport Board. Secondly, it is my impression, and the impression of many other people, that the London Transport Board has for a long time recognised the justice of the men's claims and has been unable to rectify this situation, although it wanted to, because of the Government's attitude. I should like the Minister to comment on that impression, which many of us have.

Thirdly, in view of the bitterness which is abroad in London, can the Minister say how long the inquiry will take? Can we expect a very early report indeed? If not, I fear that the sense of justice of the men will become even more inflamed.

Mr. Godber

I am very grateful for the hon. Gentleman's first words. On the question of timing, I know that Professor Phelps Brown is aware of the need to report as early as he possibly can. I remind the hon. Gentleman of the wide terms of reference, which I believe are necessary to enable the Committee to look at the matter properly. However, I want to see the report just as soon as it is possible to get it.

As to the conclusions becoming the subject of discussion through the normal channels, we must await the report and see what the conclusions are and not prejudge them. But I shall ensure that the conclusions are made public so that the House can judge the position itself.

The position of London Transport is the same as that of all nationalised industries in this respect. These industries are aware of the Government's general attitude to these maters. This is merely the normal position.

Sir R. Thompson

Can my right hon. Friend assure us that the terms of reference will be sufficiently wide to enable the Committee of Inquiry to go into all the problems now facing London road transport?

Mr. Godber

Yes, Sir; that is a fact. The Government recognise their obligations in this matter. I and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport are seeking to establish a Committee with a wide membership. When I am able to announce the other names, I am sure that it will be clear that we attach importance to this aspect.

Mr. Holt

Is the Committee of Inquiry expected to delve for quite new information of its own? Four or five points raised in the terms of reference refer to matters which are widely and intimately known already by London Transport. If the Committee is to delve for new information, does it not mean that the inquiry will take a long time and that we shall not get the report until well after Christmas?

Mr. Godber

I cannot say precisely how long it will take. I cannot add to what I have said in that respect. I think what is proposed is sound, and I would point out that the London Transport Board also welcomes the idea of a body of this kind being set up so that we can get a full picture of the position.

Mr. Dudley Smith

Can my right hon. Friend say whether the inquiry will cover in scope the management and full operational side of London Transport? For a long time thousands of Londoners have felt that there was something seriously wrong with both the management and the operation of the labour force.

Mr. Godber

I read out the terms of reference and drew attention to the fact that the Committee will be looking at the problem of increasing the efficiency of the London Transport road services. I think that the width of the terms of reference give the Committee ample opportunity to do that.

Mr. Gunter

Further to the question which I put to the right hon. Gentleman about the impressions which are abroad, can he tell us on what date London Transport submitted its conclusions on this matter to the Minister? How many weeks ago was it? Secondly, arising from previous questions, in view of the possibility of a long delay, or some delay, is there a possibility of having an interim report which might relate to pay and conditions?

Mr. Godber

In reply to the first point, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport has been in touch with the London Transport Board on a number of occasions in relation to this matter. Without notice, I could not give the exact date. As to the question of an interim report, I think that we had better leave it to see how the Committee gets on with its inquiry.