HC Deb 06 March 1963 vol 673 cc564-7

11.15 p.m.

Mr. Hare

I beg to move, in page 29, line 27, at the end to insert: (4) The Minister shall not make an order under this section except after consultation with an organisation which appears to him to be representative of workers concerned and an organisation which appears to him to be representative of employers concerned and an organisation which appears to him to he representative of any other persons who appear to him to be concerned. (5) In this section "organisation" includes—

  1. (a) in relation to workers, an association of trade unions; and
  2. (b) in relation to employers, an association of organisations of employers and also any body established by or under any enactment for the purpose of carrying on under national ownership any industry or part of an industry or undertaking;
and "trade union" includes an association of trade unions. The Amendment is designed to meet a point made by the hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) in Standing Committee, He will remember that he moved an Amendment requiring the Minister to consult organisations representing employed persons and occupiers before he made exemption orders under what is now Clause 37. As my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary made clear on that occasion, we agree entirely with the aim of ensuring that representatives of employers and workpeople are consulted before the Minister makes orders under the Clause. This would, in any case, have been our intention, in line with our general practice under the Factories Act, as the hon. Member knows.

We have gone rather further than the hon. Member originally intended by providing for consultation with other interested parties which appear to the Minister to be concerned as well as with employers' and employed persons' representatives. For instance, we have in mind an organisation representing owners who might have an interest in the matter.

I draw attention, also, to the second part of the Amendment, subsection (5), which defines employers' and workers' organisations in this context. The form of words used is exactly the same as in Section 117 of the Factories Act, and it is designed to ensure that consultation shall take place with associations of employers' and workers' organisations as well as with the organisations themselves. We think that this is reasonable because of the general interest which organisations such as the British Employers' Confederation and the Trades Union Congress may he expected to take in the subject.

Mr. Prentice

I welcome the Amendment, which meets the point which many of us had in mind in Committee. On this side of the House, of course, we do not really like Clause 37. We hope that it will be used as little as possible. On several occasions, we have pressed the Minister to say that it would be used only in very exceptional circumstances. If, or when, it is used, it should be used, we believe, only after the most careful consultation with all the interests concerned, and we hope that the trade unions and the other bodies will be vigilant and make sure that the advice which they tender is such that it will encourage the Minister to use the Clause very rarely.

The provisions of the Bill are to protect workpeople. In many cases, the provisions are more modest than we should like. Therefore, if there are to be exemptions which enable some occupiers to maintain conditions which fall short of what the Bill requires, this should be allowed only in very exceptional circumstances. We are glad that the Amendment has been proposed. We hope that it will be a useful safeguard for those whom the Bill is designed to protect.

Mr. C. Johnson

I was hoping that the Minister would explain why he felt it necessary to use such strict language in regard to the bodies to be consulted. Consultation is to be with "an organisation" of workers, "an organisation" of employers, and "an organisation" appearing to be representative of other persons concerned.

I believe that it is usual, under provisions of this kind, to make arrangements for consultation, if necessary, with more than the one body specified here. There may well be occasions when more than one union and more than one association of employers are concerned, and the Minister would have the invidious task of selecting one of them.

One might, perhaps, assume that this would be covered by the Interpretation Act in the ordinary way, in which case the singular includes the plural but the language used in this Amendment seems precise and intended to limit it to the singular. Why has the right hon. Gentleman circumscribed himself in this way?

Mr. Hare

I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's intention to simplify and shorten the drafting, but, in his laudable attempt at brevity, he has left out of consideration subsection (5), which, for the reasons I gave, is really an essential part of it.

Amendment agreed to.