HC Deb 02 July 1963 vol 680 cc191-3
Q1. Commander Kerans

asked the Prime Minister whether, in the light of the Profumo affair, he will now give consideration to the appointment of a Minister of Security.

The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan)

I think we must first await Lord Denning's report on the security aspects of his inquiry.

Commander Kerans

Will not my right hon. Friend look into this matter again? Surely it is a fact that certain of the Departments work in watertight compartments. It is this lack of liaison which brings these troubles upon us. Surely the appointment of a Minister would take some of the weight off my right hon. Friend.

The Prime Minister

That is a question to be considered, but it is important that Ministers should not feel absolved from responsibility for security within their Departments.

Mr. H. Wilson

Even before the latest events came up, does not the Prime Minister remember that, in the debate on the Radcliffe Report on Vassall, we from this side pressed for a Minister to be appointed to deal with these matters? In view of the right hon. Gentleman's appalling admissions that nobody told him anything, which suggests to some people that those under him thought that he probably did not want to be told, and in view of the fact that even since the Denning inquiry was set up the Lord Privy Seal has been forced by American newspaper revelations to make yet another statement, will the Prime Minister now tell us whether, assuming that he has enough judges left to go round, he intends to appoint an inquiry into the Philby affair?

The Prime Minister

No, Sir. The right hon. Gentleman must learn to distinguish between invective and insolence.

Mr. Wilson

Since the right hon. Gentleman failed to answer the questions put to him, either in the Radcliffe debate or in the debate a fortnight ago, will he now answer my question, because it may have escaped his notice that he is the Minister responsible for security?

The Prime Minister

The questions which the right hon. Gentleman has put to me were complicated and offensive. I would only say to him that if we are reaching a situation when every success of the security services is greeted as a failure, we will have a vested interest in not discovering traitors.

Mr. Wilson

The right hon. Gentleman must not be so petulant. He has no right to laugh this off. Is he aware that he was the Minister who cleared Philby and that for eight years since then he has been free—[HON. MEMBERS:"It was the party opposite."] In view of the interruptions, is the Prime Minister aware that Philby was appointed by the Earl of Avon and sacked by Lord Morrison? Will the right hon. Gentleman now tell us, since he cleared him eight years ago, what freedom Philby has had at the Arabic Centre at Shemlan, which the Prime Minister knows all about, and how far in these circumstances the right hon. Gentleman, if he is not prepared to take account of these factors, will do as his hon. and gallant Friend asked and appoint a Minister of Security?

The Prime Minister

The operations of this man were, of course, during the years 1946 to 1951. He was then got rid of. What I said in the debate in 1955 was on information that was available. What has now happened is not a failure of the security service. It is a success.

Mr. Grimond

Can the Prime Minister assure us that while Mr. Philby has been in the Middle East he has not been in a position to acquire confidential knowledge? Can he also tell us whether he proposes to follow the suggestion which he made for permanent machinery to supervise these breaches of security?

The Prime Minister

The answer to the first part of that question is in the affirmative. With regard to the second part, this was machinery which I had in mind and am following up with regard to having permanent machinery to deal with any problems which come up as a result of discoveries. I say very sincerely to the House that, in dealing with these matters, I hope the House will realise their complexity and the danger of putting some questions and the still greater danger of answering some of these questions.