HC Deb 02 December 1963 vol 685 cc769-70
20. Miss Herbison

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what to date is the sum of the contributions paid under the graduated pensions scheme by men and women who have retired before being eligible for any benefit.

Mr. Wood

I am afraid that this information is not available.

Miss Herbison

But is not the Minister aware of the feeling among people about to retire when they know that what they paid under the graduated scheme would neither give them an increased pension nor be returned to them? Will he do his best to get this information?

Mr. Wood

In order to get the information, I should have to examine the records of all contributors who have retired in the past two and a half years. I should then have to add the graduated contributions paid by those who have failed to earn any graduated pension. The hon. Lady will understand that this would be a quite formidable exercise. If I may try to get to the point of the Question, I do not think that the present system is unfair. As it is, if half or more than half the cost of a unit has been paid, then a whole unit is earned in pension, and, if less than half, then the contributions do not earn a unit. Frankly, I do not think that there can beany complaint that a man or woman retiring today is being "diddled" by the Government, because he or she gets a National Insurance pension worth many times the contributions he or she has paid, even if those contributions have been in full over the past forty years.

Miss Herbison

Surely, the Minister must be aware that there are many people among those retiring who have paid this graduated contribution and who are in receipt of benefit from it but who also think that it is a swindle in the scheme that they are not getting in return what they ought to be getting?

Mr. Wood

The hon. Lady will find that, if it became the system to give refunds where: it was not possible to give any graduated pension, it would not then be possible to pay a unit of pension until the full contributions for that unit had been paid. I do not think that pensioners would benefit in the long run.