HC Deb 03 December 1962 vol 668 cc917-20
16. Mr. Frank Allaun

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what would be the cost of increasing the retirement pension by £1 1s. 5d. a week.

Mrs. Thatcher

If the increase applied to all retirement pensions but to no other benefits, about £310 million a year immediately, rising by 1981–82 to about £430 million.

Mr. Allaun

Is the hon. Lady aware that both the T.U.C. and the Labour Party are now committed to this sum as a minimum increase, that we are determined to get it, and that if the Government do not give a similar increase before the General Election they will get rough treatment from the electorate, and deservedly so?

Mrs. Thatcher

The figure of £1 1s. 5d. is a new one to me and one which I have not been able to calculate from any well-known premises.

Mr. Allaun

Is the hon. Lady aware that it is the average national rent allowance which is given to those on the £2 17s. 6d. National Assistance scale, to which both the T.U.C. and the Labour Party are now committed by their annual conferences?

Mrs. Thatcher

If the hon. Gentleman studies it, he will find that that is not quite true. The rent allowance rose by 1s. 5d., but I do not think that it gives the figure which the hon. Gentleman thinks it gives.

25. Mr. J. Bennett

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what would require to be added today to the retirement pension of a married retired pensioner to maintain the ratio that sum bore to the average weekly earnings of manual workers, when it was announced in November, 1960, as the new proposed pension rate.

28. Mr. Ross

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance, by how much the pensions of a married retired pensioner would, have had to be raised to keep step with the increase in the earnings of adult male workers in manufacturing and certain other industries from the date of announcement of the last pension increase up to April, 1962.

Mr. N. Macpherson

About 7s. 1d.

Mr. Bennett

Will the Minister, in view of his reply—1 ask this more in hope than anything else—take immediate steps to bridge the gap which has just been mentioned?

Mr. Macpherson

I have dealt with this question in replies to earlier supplementary questions.

Mr. Ross

The Minister may well have dealt with the questions but he has not dealt with the problem. This 7s. 1d. is to be denied these pensioners every week. Is it not time, in view of the time-lag already announced which will take place before the increases are paid, that an increase was announced?

Mr. Macpherson

I would remind hon. Members opposite that the level of pensions is now still a good deal higher in real terms than it was before they were raised on the last occasion.

Mr. P. Browne

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are some of us on this side who would dislike intensely the pension to be raised immediately before the election, which would appear to be a bribe to the electors? Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the depreciation in pensions since the last increase, and will he please look sympathetically at the suggestion that he should make an announcement in the fairly near future?

Mr. Macpherson

I shall take note of what my hon. Friend says.

27. Mr. Ross

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will state the financial gap between single flat-rate pension then payable and the average weekly earnings of manual male workers in manufacturing industries in October, 1956, October, 1959, and April, 1962, respectively.

Mr. N. Macpherson

In money terms, the differences at these dates were: respectively, £10 5s. 7d., cell 11s. 3d., and £13 6s. 4d. In percentage terms, the differences in 1956 amounted to 83£7 per cent. of average earnings, and the differences in 1959 and 1962 were a little less—82.2 per cent. in both cases.

Mr. Ross

Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that those figures give the actual financial hardship of stepping down from earnings to these benefits? Does he appreciate that this country seems to be doing less well in this respect than any other part of Europe, and would he take this into account in this mythical "close review" of which we hear so much?

Mr. Macpherson

In making comparisons with other countries one has to bear many considerations in mind, and in this instance we are taking the worst case. Only one out of 10 of those claiming retirement pension is a single man. As I have said, the comparison is not on all fours. To make an exact comparison, we should have to consider what a parson receives in basic benefit, plus his increments, his graduated pension as it builds up, and any occupational benefits, and, on the other side, we should have to deduct the various expenses that have to be met from earnings.

Mr. Houghton

Is the Minister aware that we would stop asking all these questions if he would only say what he intends to do about the level of retirement pensions? The right hon. Gentleman says that he has this matter under close review; would he kindly say when that review will be completed, and when he hopes to say something about it?

Mr. Macpherson

I realise well that the Opposition would stop asking all these questions, for the time being, if I made any announcement.

32. Mr. Lawson

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what is the present value of the single adult retirement pension expressed in terms of 1946 prices.

Mr. N. Macpherson

On the basis of the Retail Prices Index linked, for the period before June, 1947, with the Cost of Living Index, about 31s. 6d.

Mr. Lawson

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his Answer means that there has been an increase in real purchasing power of about 5s. 6d.? After 16 years of prosperity, is it not absurd that old-age pensioners are getting only some 5s. and a few coppers more than they got, in effect, in 1946?

Mr. Macpherson

We think in terms of existing values rather than previous values. The fact is that since that time there has been an increase of 21 per cent. in real value, and whether we look at it as 5s. 6d. at 1946 prices or 10s. at current prices does not very much matter.

Mr. MacDermot

Are not these prices given in relation to the general price index, and are they not wholly false when one considers the true value of pensions in terms of the things that pensioners spend their money on?

Mr. Macpherson

It has to be remembered that pensioners are now drawn from all sections of the community. I should say that if we did construct a special pension index it might well prove to be not as favourable to the pensioners as the existing one.

Mr. Ross

How can the right hon. Gentleman say that when, in relation to the actual basic pension, rent, which must first be paid by pensioners, is one-third of the pension but is only given one-tenth weightage in the Retail Prices index?

Mr. Macpherson

The hon. Gentleman knows that rent can be taken into account by the National Assistance Board if there are no other resources to meet it. That, surely, is his answer.