HC Deb 03 December 1962 vol 668 cc914-7
14. Mr. McKay

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how much the graduated pension would be improved for individuals with £12 and £15 wages, respectively, if the contribution far this purpose were raised above the £9 limit from 4¼ per cent. to 5 per cent.; and, if the 5 per cent. contribution were continued up to a wage of £20, thereafter reducing to 4 per cent. and above £30 to 3 per cent., what would be the graduated pension for the man with £20, £30, £40, £50 and £100.

Mrs. Thatcher

It is not possible to answer the hon. Member's Question without knowing on what terms benefit would be calculated if graduated contributions and the liable earnings range were extended in the way stated.

Mr. McKay

I am very surprised at the Answer, because with a little work the whole Question could have been answered very simply. I admit that it means work, but it can be worked out. If instead of the existing position the graded contribution were raised by 1s. for both men and women, making men pay 8s. 8d. and women pay 7s. 8d., an income would result which would provide 74 per cent. of all basic benefits in the scheme. Is it not true that the graded contribution also works into the ordinary insurance scheme? Is it not true also that there is a tremendous balance of money coming from the contributions to the graded pensions which the Government are using to finance the scheme altogether? Does not the hon. Lady agree that it is time that the Government realised the conditions which exist in the country and provided a better basic benefit in future for everybody?

Mrs. Thatcher

The hon. Gentleman not only has a genius for cramming a great deal into the written part of the Question but into his supplementary questions as well. It is quite true that graduated contributions go into the main National Insurance Fund. I have tried to follow the points made in the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. I assure him that it is not for lack of work that we cannot find the answers. We cannot always produce calculations from his own starting point.

Mr. McKay

Because of the answers given, I want to notify the hon. Lady that I shall raise this on the Adjournment.

15. Mr. Frank Allaun

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will estimate the approximate additional number of those contracting out of the Government's graduated pensions scheme in the next 12 months.

Mrs. Thatcher

No such estimate is possible, but it may help the hon. Member to know that in the last three months some 14,042 employees have been contracted out.

Mr. Allaun

Is the hon. Lady aware that because the Government's scheme has been such a rotten one for the pensioners it has proved a highly profitable one for the life assurance companies and that their profits for 1962 are estimated to be an all-time record, even greater than in previous years?

Mrs. Thatcher

If they are an all-time record, the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be doing very well in taxation with which to subsidise the National Insurance scheme.

Mr. Ross

When will the Minister be able to tell us what effect this wholesale contracting out has on the basic finances of the scheme?

Mrs. Thatcher

By the end of December we shall have transferred the information on 30 million cards to their separate insurance records. I am afraid not before March.

18. Mr. Wainwright

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will give the estimated number of men and women, respectively, who are now members of the graduated pension scheme.

Mrs. Thatcher

It is estimated that the average numbers of men and women contributing to the graduated pension scheme in any week are very broadly of the order of 9 million and 2 million respectively.

Mr. Wainwright

Is not the hon. Lady surprised that so few women are in this scheme? Could she tell the House the number of women who have contracted out of the scheme, and also the number of men who, because their earnings are less than £9 a week, cannot hope to be members of the scheme?

Mrs. Thatcher

The earnings of many of the women are below £9 a week because they are on part-time work only. [HON. MEMBERS: "No "]

36. Mr. Houghton

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether, in view of the rise in average male earnings above £15 a week since 1959, he will raise the maximum earnings upon which graduated contributions are payable.

Mr. N. Macpherson

I have no power to do so under present legislation, but I shall bear the hon. Gentleman's suggestion in mind when legislation to change the level of benefits and contributions is being considered.

Mr. Houghton

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he need not be grateful to me for making any such suggestion? He will have to take this into consideration when making an increase in the flat-rate pension after his "close review". Is the Minister really in the muddle he conveys to the House on this matter? Has he any clear idea where he is going?

Mr. Macpherson

The hon. Gentleman asked a Question about graduated contributions rather than about the flat-rate contributions—unless, perhaps, he was referring to the contracted-out ones.

Mr. Houghton

Is the Minister aware that he has to milk the graduated contribution in order to pay the flat-rate benefit, and will, therefore, have to raise the graduated contribution to finance an increase in the flat-rate benefit? Does he not see the relationship between the two?

Mr. Macpherson

I am well aware that, at the present time, the graduated contribution makes a general contribution to the National Insurance Scheme; and that, even so, the whole benefit is a very good bargain indeed.