Scotland (Hansard, 17 April 1962)

§ 25. Mr. Willis
asked the President of the Board of Trade what estimates he has made of the number of new jobs that will need to be (provided in Scotland during the next five years in order to reduce the rate of unemployment in Scotland to United Kingdom levels and stem the flow of labour to other parts of the United Kingdom.

§ Mr. N. Macpherson
If everything else remained unaltered, the provision of sufficient jobs to take about 40,000 off the register of those now unemployed would bring the rate in Scotland down to the rate for Great Britain as a whole. It is not possible to forecast what changes will take place over the next five years.

§ Mr. Willis
Does not the hon. Gentleman think that it is time the Government really got down to the problem of trying to assess the needs of Scotland in order that they may be able to measure their achievements against that assessment? They would then realise how far short of the needs of Scotland the achievement of the present Government really is.

§ Mr. Macpherson
We are attempting to assess the needs all the time, from day to day. Against the 40,000 jobs which the hon. Gentleman asked about, there are 36,000 jobs in prospect, which is some way towards equalizing. if other things remain equal.

§ Mr. Jay
Does not the Parliamentary Secretary realise that the public does not want to see everything remaining unaltered and that by his Answer to this Question and to that concerning North British Locomotives and others he 228 shows an attitude which is hopelessly complacent and inadequate to meet the Scottish problem?

§ Mr. Macpherson
It is not a question of my wanting to see nothing unaltered. It is nothing of the kind. It is a question of the form of the Question I was asked and I have attempted to answer the Question as it was asked, saying that we cannot foresee the next five years in detail but we are adding very considerably to the jobs in prospect and moving in the direction that the bon. Gentleman wants.

§ 26. Mr. Willis
asked the President of the Board of Trade what new proposals he now has for bringing new industries to Scotland.

§ Mr. N. Macpherson
Since the Local Employment Act came into force in April, 1960, the Board of Trade has undertaken an expenditure of £43.9 million to provide over 30,000 jobs in Scotland. My right hon. Friend will continue to use these powers and has no further measures in view at present.

§ Mr. Willis
Yes, but is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that unemployment is still double the United Kingdom rate, and that migration is continuing at the very high level of 30,000, about which he said nothing in answering the last Question? Does he not really think that Tory policies over the last eleven years have proved inadequate to meet the needs of Scotland? Is it not really time that the Government started to apply their mind to some new proposals?

§ Mr. Macpherson
No, I would not accept for a moment that our policies are not working, but we are considering the Toothill proposals.

§ Mr. Manuel
Does not the Minister realise that the answer he has given in telling us about the jobs which have been created or are in the pipeline is quite insufficient? Is he not cognisant of the large number of jobs which are steadily fading out in Scotland? Will he not provide a booklet assessing what is coming about by the further colliery closures and the contraction of the railways in Scotland, in order to get enough evidence to see just what extra number of jobs will be needed before we 229 go further with this great decline in employment prospects in Scotland?

§ Mr. Macpherson
Of course we consider colliery closures as we are made aware of them and take them into account in considering what shall be put in the development district list, but I cannot accept that the provision of 36,000 jobs in such a short period of time is in any way a failure.

§ 29. Mr. Rankin
asked the President of the Board of Trade to what extent the powers under the Local Employment Act are being invoked to deal with the existing industrial unemployment in Scotland.

§ Mr. N. Macpherson
To the full extent that my night hon. Friend considers they can appropriately be invoked.

§ Mr. Rankin
Is the hon. Gentleman really alive—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—to the serious nature of the unemployment crisis in Scotland? Is he not aware that the machinery of D.A.T.A.C. is quite inappropriate for dealing with the present problem? Would he not consider taking political action now, for example do the case of the remaining part of the North British Locomotive Works at Queen's Park, employing 1,500 men who are at the moment faced with a complete stoppage of work? Would the hon. Gentleman not consider an emergency grant to enable this part of the industry to carry on?

§ Mr. Macpherson
This works has received very substantial assistance from D.A.T.A.C. in the past, and representatives of the City of Glasgow are coming to consult my right hon. Friend and the Secretary of State for Scotland this afternoon on this business.

§ Mr. Rankin
On a point of order. Is it in order for a Minister to suggest that, however serious the circumstances may be, representatives of the City of Glasgow should displace the responsible Members of Parliament who are in constant touch with the Minister?

§ Mr. Speaker
I had hoped that the House had understood the extreme undesirability of hon. Members rising to points of order which it is difficult to believe they themselves consider to be so.

§ Mr. T. Fraser
Further to that point of order. Is it conceivable, Mr. Speaker, that you might protect the rights of Members of this House to seek an answer from Ministers? The Parliamentary Secretary replied to my hon. Friend saying that he would not answer his Question because a deputation from Glasgow City Corporation would be having discussions with two Ministers. Surely Ministers are accountable to the House of Commons?

§ Mr. Speaker
I think that the hon. Gentleman would assist me by recalling his own knowledge of the practice and powers of the Chair. The Chair has no power whatever to require a Minister to answer, or to answer in any form or in any circumstances. It is because of that fact that I could not detect any semblance of a point of order in what the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) said.