Retirement Pensioners (Hansard, 9 April 1962)

§ 1. Mr. Gourlay
asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will state the number of retirement pensioners in receipt of an allowance from the National Assistance Board on the latest available date.

§ 11. Mr. Ledger
asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will state the number of retirement pensioners in receipt of a weekly payment from the National Assistance Board at the most recent available date; and how this compares with the number of such payments made in the last week in April, 1961.

§ The Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter)
The number of National Assistance supplements to retirement pension is ascertained quarterly. It was 1,061,000 at the end of March. 1962, compared with 1,079,000 a year before. The number at the end of April, 1961, is not known, but it is estimated to have been about 930 1,050,000 earlier in that month, immediately after the increased pension rates came into force. Some of the supplements provide for the requirements of a household with more than one pensioner.

§ Mr. Gourlay
Is the Minister aware that the increase in the number of people receiving assistance between April last year and April this year indicates the great urgency of the need to increase pensions? Will he tell the House whether he has taken the opportunity of advising his right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer that today's Budget would be a very opportune time to give the old-age pensioners an increase?

§ Mr. Boyd-Carpenter
The difficulty about that argument would hypotheticallay be that the figures that I have read out indicate that the firm figures taken a year apart show a reduction in the number of cases on supplement.

§ Mr. Gourlay
While it is true that there has been a reduction from the figures immediately before the increase, has there not been an increase of 11,000 during the period, which indicates that the present pensions are insufficient?

§ Mr. Boyd-Carpenter
I think that is a very flimsy basis on which to found so substantial a structure. In point of fact, as the hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well, the number of supplementary cases has remained remarkably constant over the years and is, in fact, dependent entirely on the relationship between the two scales of benefit.

§ Mr. Houghton
How much longer will the Government allow National Assistance to continue its disproportionate part in our scheme of social security? Is it not a disgrace to our social security system that well over 1 million retirement pensioners still have to have a supplement on a needs basis?

§ Mr. Boyd-Carpenter
The figures which I gave indicate a percentage of 22.7. If that is a disproportionate proportion, it is a little interesting to note that it is exactly the same as it was in 1951.

§ 13. Mr. Gourlay
asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many pensioners in the area served by 931 the Board's Office in Kirkcaldy are in receipt of a supplementary allowance from the National Assistance Board; and what was the corresponding figure for April. 1961.

§ The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)
As my right hon. Friend explained in answer to the hon. Gentleman's earlier Question, the number of National Assistance supplements to retirement pension is ascertained quarterly and is not available for the month of April. In the area served by the National Assistance Board's office in Kirkcaldy, it was 2,717 at the end of March, 1962, and 2,691 at the end of March, 1961.

§ Mr. Gourlay
Is the Minister aware that despite the fact that the name of "National Assistance" has been changed to "supplementary allowance" on the pension, it is still very distasteful for many people to have to apply to the Board for supplementation of their pension, and will he not agree that this is an appropriate time to make an increase in the basic pension?

§ Mrs. Thatcher
I think that the figures for Kirkcaldy show that that particular office has done a good deal to overcome people's reluctance to apply for National Assistance. I would not agree with the hon. Gentleman's reasoning that because 23 out of 100 retirement pensioners are in need of supplementation the other 77 should all have an increase in their basic pensions.

15. Mrs. Slater
asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what proportion of retirement pensioners were in receipt of weekly allowances from the National Assistance Board at the latest available date; and what was the average weekly payment.

§ Mr. Boyd-Carpenter
At the end of 1961, 22.7 per cent. and 19s. 5d.

Mrs. Slater
Does the right hon. Gentleman think that this is a very satisfactory state of affairs? I suppose he will argue that because the percentage may be low the need is not there. Now that this social welfare service is lagging behind those of other countries, is it not time that the Government had another look at it so that they can meet 932 the needs of these people, particularly in view of the rise in the cost of living?

§ Mr. Boyd-Carpenter
I cannot accept that because the National Assistance Board does its duty in paying these supplements this constitutes evidence that our social services are lagging behind anybody else's.

§ 17. Mr. Hannan
asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what was the number of retirement pensioners in the areas served by the Glasgow offices at the latest available date; how many of such pensioners were in receipt of supplementary allowances; and what percentage they are of the total.

§ Mrs. Thatcher
Statistics relating to the numbers of retirement pensioners are not available for particular areas, and it follows that it is not possible to state the percentage of pensions supplemented by National Assistance. The number of supplements at the end of March, 1962, in the area served by the National Assistance Board's offices in Glasgow, was 24,400.

§ Mr. Hannan
Does the hon. Lady recognise from these figures that a very high proportion of these pensioners are now seeking National Assistance in addition to the pension? Will not she recognise that she will be guilty of self-deception if she believes that these increased numbers are due to the better posters which are being displayed in public places? The figures show instead a real need. Will she increase the pension immediately?

§ Mrs. Thatcher
The fact that the National Assistance Board is there does, in fact, meet the need. The hon. Gentleman may be interested to know that there are now 1,000 fewer people drawing National Assistance in Glasgow than at the equivalent time last year.

§ Mr. Lawson
Is the hon. Lady aware that a recent study sponsored by the Nuffield Institute showed that, on average, half as many people again should be in receipt of National Assistance but are not applying for it? Is she further aware that this would mean another 10 per cent. to be added to the existing 23 per cent. of those receiving assistance?

§ Mrs. Thatcher
That conclusion is not accepted by the National Assistance Board. It was the result of interviewing 933 some 500 people and drawing conclusions relating to nearly 7 million retirement pensioners. That means equating every one person to some 14,000. It is notoriously difficult to interview people about their sources of income. The hon. Gentleman will be interested to know that the person who was persuaded to appear before the television cameras as being typical of those too proud to apply for National Assistance had been drawing it for two years.

§ Mr. Lawson
On a point of order.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. There is so much noise that it is becoming difficult to transact our business. The hon. Member for Motherwell (Mr. Lawson) was addressing me on some topic.

§ Mr. Lawson
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the misleading statement made by the hon. Lady, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

§ 41. Mr. J. Robertson
asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many retirement pensioners in the area served by the National Assistance Board's offices in Paisley are in receipt of a weekly supplement to their pension: and whether the numbers of such cases show an increasing or decreasing trend over the past six months.

§ Mrs. Thatcher
In the area served by the National Assistance Board's office in Paisley, the number of National Assistance supplements to retirement pension at the end of March, 1962, was 3,287. In six months to that date the number had increased by four.

§ Mr. Robertson
I have not the slighthest idea what that reply was.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. The House is defeating its own business by its loquacity. I ask the assistance of hon. Members in making less noise. Will the hon. Lady be good enough to repeat the Answer?

§ Mrs. Thatcher
In the area served by the National Assistance Board's office in Paisley, the number of National Assistance supplements to retirement pension at the end of March, 1962, was 3,287. In six months to that date the number had increased by four.

§ 44. Mrs. Cullen
asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many retirement pensioners in Scotland were in receipt of a weekly supplement from the National Assistance Board at the latest available date.

§ Mrs. Thatcher
At the end of March, 1962, the number of National Assistance supplements to retirement pensioners in Scotland was 81,855.

§ Mrs. Cullen
Will the Minister consider increasing the rate of pensions and reducing the number of people relying on the National Assistance Board?

§ Mrs. Thatcher
To increase the rate of pension would not help those who are on National Assistance but those who are already above the National Assistance scale.

§ Mr. Ross
Perhaps, therefore, the Minister or his Parliamentary Secretary can tell us why the last time they increased the pension they did not increase National Assistance by the same amount, with the result that those who according to the formula are in greatest need got least help, and that that help has already disappeared because of rising prices.

§ Mrs. Thatcher
The hon. Member will be aware that the main National Assistance increase was in September, 1959, when retirement pension rates did not move at all. If one takes the 1959 and 1961 increases in National Assistance together, they are greater than the increase in retirement pension between 1958 and 1961. They are 8s. 6d. in National Assistance scale for a single person and 14s. for a married couple, as against 7s. 6d. and 12s. 6d., respectively, in retirement pension.

§ Mr. Ross
Does the hon. Lady appreciate that that is quite irrelevant to what happened in April last year, when people got an increase in pension of 12s. 6d. but the National Assistance scales for a married couple rose by only 5s., which was all the benefit that those in greatest need got on that occasion?

§ Mrs. Thatcher
My answer was not irrelevant. The irrelevancy existed in the hon. Member's mind.