HC Deb 09 April 1962 vol 657 cc948-54
29. Mr. Houghton

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance in how many cases applicants for National Assistance have had disregards limited to 30s. a week under the regulations.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I regret that figures are not available, but I have no reason to believe that the number is other than small.

Mr. Houghton

Has not the time come to reconsider this maximum? I have in mind a disabled soldier with severe facial injuries who comes up against the maximum of 30s. disregards. It seems very hard that compensation for very severe injury should limit the amount he receives from National Assistance.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

As the hon. Gentleman will remember, we had a very full discussion about this when we increased the disregards two years ago. The difficulty is that if one takes them much further one more and more separates the payment of Assistance from actual need.

30. Mr. Houghton

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what were the average weekly amounts of discretionary additions to National Assistance payments for special diets, laundry, cost of domestic help, and exceptional fuel requirements, respectively, during 1961 or the last available year; and what were the main items covered by other special needs referred to in Reports of the National Assistance Board.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The average amounts of discretionary additions included in assessments of weekly National Assistance allowances current at the end of 1961 were, for special diets 7s.; for laundry 2s. 6d.; for the cost of domestic help 3s. 6d.; and for exceptional fuel requirements 4s. 6d. The other items are too varied for classification.

33. Mr. G. Thomas

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what was the number of people in Wales in receipt of National Assistance in 1951, 1955, 1960, and at the nearest convenient date, respectively.

Mrs. Thatcher

The figures for March in 1951, 1955, 1960 and 1962 were, respectively, 114,474. 140,520, 135,293 and 136,019

Mr. Thomas

Does the hon. Lady realise that, disturbing as those figures are, if the Ministry were to reassess the basis of need, as it ought in view of rising costs, the figures would be doubled? What does she propose to do to meet the need which the Assistance Board is not covering in cases like this?

Mrs. Thatcher

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the National Assistance scales have been increased eight times since the inception of the scheme and the disqualifications for receiving it have been progressively relaxed. These changes, of course, are reflected in the increased National Assistance Board scales, and, on top of those, there are increases for rent which do not need revision by regulation.

38. Mr. Boyden

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will outline the factors leading to the estimated increase of £4 million by the National Assistance Board in 1962–63 in expenditure on assistance grants, etc.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

Largely the cumulative effect of increases in rent and rates, and a further increase in the number and average amounts of discretionary additions.

Mr. Boyden

Is not the Minister's attitude to this whole problem deplorably complacent, since in answer to an earlier Question he was satisfied to have the same number of applicants for National Assistance? Is it not time that he wanted to reduce the number considerably without reducing the benefits?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The hon. Member must know perfectly well that it is the increase in the National Assistance scales that increases the eligibility for National Assistance.

Mr. Manuel

Why does not the Minister stick up for his Department? Why is he allowing it to featherbed other Departments? Welfare foods, rents and rate increases are now being carried by National Assistance payments. Is the Minister aware that many landlords are being subsidised straight from the Treasury instead of from statutory payments from householders?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I not only stick up for my Department: I keep awake and stand up for it.

42. Mrs. Braddock

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many of the recipients of a weekly supplement from the National Assistance Board are women; and how many of these are over 70 years of age.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

At the end of 1961, the number of women among the recipients of weekly National Assistance allowances was 1,226,000. They included 646,000 aged 70 or over. These figures include women not in receipt of any National Insurance benefit.

Mrs. Braddock

When the circus on the benches opposite is quiet, I will be able to ask my supplementary question. In view of the fact that so many of these people are women over the age of 70, will the Minister arrange that the whole of these cases are reviewed to ensure that the people are in receipt of an income that gives them some sort of a decent standard of living?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

As I think the hon. Lady knows, the National Assistance Board is particularly careful to look into the question of discretionary allowances in the case of older people, with the result that a discretionary allowance was paid in two-thirds of the cases where an Assistance grant was paid in supplementation of a retirement pension.

43. Mrs. Braddock

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many retirement pensioners in Liverpool are now in receipt of a weekly assistance supplement; and how many such applicants for assistance were turned down in the first three months of this year.

Mrs. Thatcher

In the area covered by the National Assistance Board's offices which serve the City of Liverpool, and also some places outside it, the number of National Assistance supplements to retirement pension at the end of March, 1962, was 24,047. I regret that the information asked for in the second part of the Question is not available.

Mrs. Braddock

Will the Parliamentary Secretary obtain the information? I am told that there are difficulties about people being turned down because their income is just at the level of the full-scale of National Assistance. When the question of payment for a prescription arises, difficulties are created because of that fact and because the total amount that the person has is just on the level of the National Assistance total.

Mrs. Thatcher

We do not keep figures of particular kinds of applicants or of the number of applications that are turned down. The best answer that I can give to the latter part of the hon. Lady's Question is to say that in the first 14 weeks of this year, there were 40,765 applications all told, of which 3,907 did not receive any grant.

45. Mrs. Cullen

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many unemployed persons in Glasgow are in receipt of a weekly allowance from the National Assistance Board; and how many of these have been in receipt of such payment for three months or more.

Mrs. Thatcher

The number of authorisations providing for the payment of a weekly National Assistance allowance to a person registering for work which were current at the end of March, 1962, in the National Assistance Board's offices in Glasgow was 10,720. I regret that the information asked for in the second part of the Question is not available.

Mrs. Cullen

Does not this prove that the present rate of benefit is totally inadequate as an insurance against unemployment?

Mrs. Thatcher

No, Sir.

46. Mr. Small

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many pensioners in receipt of a weekly allowance from the National Assistance Board in Scotland are tenants of local authority houses; and what is the average weekly allowance in respect of rent.

Mrs. Thatcher

At the end of 1961, the number of retirement pensioners receiving weekly national assistance allowances in Scotland who were tenants of local authorities was about 38,000 and the average amount of rent paid by them was 19s. 4d. a week.

Mr. Small

As there will shortly be rent increases arising out of the Scottish Housing Bill, which is now going through the House, can I have an assurance that the people mentioned in the Question will receive the maximum protection from the National Assistance Board?

Mrs. Thatcher

Increases in rent and rates have so far been fully taken into account by the National Assistance Board.

48. Dr. Dickson Mabon

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many retirement pensioners in Greenock and district were receiving a weekly supplement at the latest available date; and what was the average amount of these supplements.

Mrs. Thatcher

In the area served by the National Assistance Board's office in Greenock, which extends considerably beyond the Burgh, the number of National Assistance supplements to retirement pension at the end of March, 1962, was 1,862. I regret that the information asked for in the second part of the Question is not available.

Dr. Mabon

Is the hon. Lady aware that while we appreciate the work of the officials of the National Assistance Board, there are very few hon. Members—and I am certainly not one of them—who are satisfied with the level of supplementation given to old-age pensioners? Since her right hon. Friend has refused to make representations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer about increasing pensions, will the hon. Lady make representations to increase the scale of National Assistance allowances for these people?

Mrs. Thatcher

I understand that constitutionally the initiative is with the Chairman of the National Assistance Board.

49. Mr. Dempsey

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what was the nature of his reply to the representations recently made by the National Assistance Board for an increase in National Assistance scales.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I have received no such representations.

Mr. Dempsey

Is the Minister aware that there is considerable disquiet among some of the National Assistance Board advisory committees about the present rate of allowance being no longer realistic because of the increasing cost of living? Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that even potatoes will soon be outwith the pocket of the old-age pensioner because of rising prices? Will he consider introducing a realistic scale to give to pensioners and other recipients of National Assistance the strength in purchasing power which they had last year?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I am perfectly certain that the House can be confident that the National Assistance Board, which includes among its members former hon. Members from both sides of the House, is in close touch with the situation and will act rightly in the future as in the past.

Mr. Ellis Smith

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that in the past Ministers of all parties have asked the Chairman and other members of the Board to give sympathetic consideration to the need for increasing the scale? Does he not agree that the time has arrived when he should consider making such a request?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I have no idea what Ministers in the past have done.

Mr. Houghton

Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly tell the House whether the initiative rests with the National Assistance Board, or whether it makes representations to the Minister only when it is satisfied that he will receive them favourably? Where does the initiative lie? Who takes the decisions? Or is it a cook-up between the Board and the Minister?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

In the terms of the National Assistance Act, 1948, the House itself placed the initiative on the Board.

Mrs. Castle

Has the right hon. Gentleman intimated to the Chairman of the Board that he would favourably consider any representations made to him for an increase?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The Chairman of the Board and I have many very interesting conversations.