HC Deb 31 May 1961 vol 641 cc254-7
36. Mr. S. O. Davies

asked the Minister of Defence what was the purpose of the recent official visit to this country of Franz Josef Strauss, the West German Defence Minister; and what was the Government's reply to his request for an increase of nuclear armament for the Bonn Government.

Mr. Watkinson

The main reason for the meeting was to examine progress made in co-operation within the framework of N.A.T.O. between Great Britain and the Federal Republic in the development and production of military equipment and German procurement of conventional weapons from British production. As for the second part of the hon. Member's Question the Federal Republic possesses no nuclear warheads, and made no request to Her Majesty's Government in this connection.

Mr. Emrys Hughes

Can the Minister tell us whether he has come to any agreement under which this country is to supply substantial arms to Germany? Does he think that that is in the interests of this country? Does he realise that Germany is organising her industry in order to defeat us in the export markets of the world, hoping that we shall waste our technical skill on obsolete weapons?

Mr. Watkinson

The hon. Gentleman is fully entitled to his views, which I respect. But this House has to take one decision or the other. Twice in my lifetime, after a great war, we have tried to treat Germany as some form of outcast and separate from the European comity of nations, and it has failed. This time the Government believe that it is more in the interests of world peace that we should draw Germany so closely to the other allies that she cannot take independent action, even though she might wish to do so. That is also the German view and we should agree with it.

Mr. Ronald Bell

Does my right hon. Friend realise that the defence orders which he mentioned in his Answer to Question No. 35 are still nebulous in character and extremely small in amount? Will he impress upon Herr Strauss, the German Defence Minister, how disappointing it is that still, after all these years, no substantial part of Germany's military requirements are being met by British industry?

Mr. Watkinson

I do not disagree with my hon. Friend that Germany, to play her full part in interdependence, might place more orders, not only with us, but with the French and other N.A.T.O. allies. On the other hand, I should not call, for example, an order for 2,000 tank guns either negligible in quantity or expenditure. I attach great importance to our joint arrangements with the French regarding the development of both types of vertical take-off aircraft.

Mr. Ronald Bell

Did my hon. Friend say 2,000?

Mr. Watkinson

I do not think that my hon. Friend correctly heard my original Answer. There is a first order for 200 but the communiqué clearly set out a total order which is about another 2,000.

Mr. S. Silverman

May I draw the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the answer that he gave to my hon. Friend? Is he aware that the defence of German rearmament which he then uttered is not a defence for the proposition which was offered either to this House or to France, or to Germany itself, at the time when the Brussels Treaties were put up for ratification by the sovereign assemblies of each of those countries? On the contrary, is he not aware that all of them reluctantly accepted the proposition on the express assurance that German forces would not be armed with nuclear weapons; and that a great many votes would have been cast differently had it been understood at that time that the time would come shortly afterwards when, without reference to this House, an amendment of that kind would be made? Will he indicate that no application for nuclear weapons by the German Government will be agreed to by this country without prior reference to the House of Commons?

Mr. Watkinson

The hon. Gentleman has not paid very much attention to the previous questions and answers, because twice it has been clearly stated by me in those answers that Germany has no possession of nuclear weapons and that all nuclear warheads, by American law, remain under American custody and control. Therefore, the question of Germany obtaining nuclear warheads is not the question before this House or before any other body.

Mr. Silverman

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the supplementary question?

Mr. Shinwell

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Questions addressed to him on this subject are not necessarily addressed to him from the standpoint of any unilateralist opinion, but because some of us are very much concerned about the provocation that may ensue to other countries as a result of arming Germany with weapons which were not originally intended?

Mr. Watkinson

I accept the right hon. Gentleman's sincerity in this matter. I appreciate that this is not an easy decision for anyone to take. I have tried to be perfectly frank with the House and I say that on balance it is the Government's view that the wisest course now is to embody West Germany, as she wishes, as closely and firmly into the Western Alliance as we possibly can. If we are to do this, Germany must play her full part in the complicated system of Western interdependence in weapons that we are painstakingly trying to build up.