HC Deb 31 May 1961 vol 641 cc251-4
35. Mr. Shinwell

asked the Minister of Defence what agreement has been reached to enable the Federal German Government to build naval vessels of the destroyer type, and to acquire tactical atomic weapons; what consultations on this subject took place within the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation; what is the quantity and type of arms Her Majesty's Government have agreed to sell to the Federal German Government; and upon what conditions agreement was reached.

The Minister of Defence (Mr. Harold Watkinson)

The Council of Western European Union has approved an amendment to the Brussels Treaty which will permit the Federal Republic of Germany to build eight destroyers of up to 6,000 tons displacements. This amendment was approved to enable the Federal Republic of Germany to meet its N.A.T.O. responsibilities.

German forces are already equipped with the delivery systems for certain nuclear weapons under agreed N.A.T.O. plans. All their nuclear warheads will continue to be held in United States custody.

We have agreed to sell a wide range of equipment to the Federal Republic, including tank guns and ammunition, aircraft engines and aircraft spares, Seacat guided missiles, and the Green Archer Mortar Spotting Radar. The largest single order is likely to be for the 105mm. tank guns and ammunition; an initial order for 200 guns and ammunition should be signed shortly.

These arrangements, whether made collectively in Western European Union and N.A.T.O. or bilaterally between our two countries, do not go beyond what is necessary to enable Germany to play her full part in the collective defence of the N.A.T.O. area.

Mr. Shinwell

Does this mean that of its own volition Western European Union can amend the Brussels Treaty without any consultation with the House of Commons and that we are entirely dependent on a decision of Western European Union in a matter of this sort? Upon what basis does the right hon. Gentleman formulate his opinion and why did he come to this conclusion? Although it may be desirable that Western Germany should make its contribution to the defence of the West, are we not going a little too far by permitting West Germany to have naval vessels of this type armed with atomic weapons?

Mr. Watkinson

This is a matter for W.E.U. There is a Question down to my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal and I imagine that he will set out quite clearly the relevant considerations from a W.E.U. point of view.

As to whether Germany is being over-armed, with his wide experience the right hon. Gentleman knows quite clearly that Germany has not yet met the N.A.T.O. requirement which SACEUR has asked and has therefore some way further to go yet before she is playing her full part as a member of the N.A.T.O. alliance.

Mr. Shinwell

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I do not know what SACEUR has asked, but I happen to know what the House of Commons agreed to when it accepted the principle of a contribution by the West German Government to the defence of the West? Is he aware that it was never contemplated, by either the Labour Government or the Conservative Government which followed in their early years, that Germany should be allowed to go beyond the possession of conventional weapons?

Mr. Watkinson

This is a matter which should be put to my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal and there is a Question to him on the Order Paper. However, on the general point and in answer to the right hon. Gentleman's very proper question, provision was made in the revised Brussels Treaty for the amendment of these restrictions on the manufacture by Germany of arms other than the so-called A, B, and C weapons, that is to say, atomic, biological and chemical weapons, which were absolutely barred.

Mr. M. Foot

Referring to the question of the Brussels Treaty, is not it a fact that the clauses in the Treaty limiting German rearmament were among the most important of its provisions? Can the right hon. Gentleman say what consultations he had with the Foreign Office about bringing to the House of Commons the whole of the alterations in the Treaty which have apparently gone through, particularly as this involved also the question of nuclear weapons?

Mr. Watkinson

It did not involve the question of nuclear weapons. I have already made plain that there is a provision in the Treaty for the amendment of restrictions other than those on A, B and C weapons.

Mr. Dudley Williams

I appreciate the desirability of the Federal German Republic making an adequate contribution to Western European defence, but will my right hon. Friend explain why it is necessary for the Federal Republic to be granted permission to build eight ships of this size whereas the United Kingdom fleet is six, despite the growing responsibilities of the United Kingdom?

Mr. Watkinson

I do not know what my hon. Friend means by the United Kingdom being restricted to six ships. The point is that under the portion of the Treaty which could be amended Western European Union, by, I believe, a unanimous vote, has agreed that Germany, in order to meet her defence commitments in the Baltic and in other areas which the Supreme Allied Commander Europe has indicated, should be entitled to build ships up to this limit.

Mr. Reynolds

Will the Minister confirm that if we adopted the policy put forward by unilateralists and carried it out at W.E.U. it would not be possible to question him on this subject today? Having said that, may I ask whether the Minister will please give us some of the arguments which he considered relevant in agreeing to this modification of the Schedule to the Brussels Treaty? Can he also tell us how long it is estimated that, even in a conventional war ships of this size would be effective—[Interruption.]—my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) is intervening, but I cannot hear what he is saying. Can the Minister say how long he reckons that ships of this size could remain in action even in a conventional war? The right hon. Gentleman referred to other areas. Do they involve the North Sea and if so, and if these boats are coming to this country, will he make sure that they are well armed with hosepipes?

Mr. Watkinson

Regarding the portions of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question which it is appropriate for me to answer, it is the custom of this country and, I hope, of the allies of N.A.T.O., to try to meet the full requirements set forth by the relevant military authorities. That is what Germany is trying to do. The foreign policy aspect of his supplementary question must be put to my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal.