Apprenticeships

HC Deb 26 June 1961 vol 643 cc20-3

24. Mr. Manuel

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is now able to make a forecast of the number of extra apprenticeships likely to be available to school leavers in Scotland this year.

Mr. Hare

No, Sir. It is not possible to make any precise forecast, but reports reaching me give welcome indications that there is likely to be a good increase in apprenticeship numbers this year.

Mr. Manuel

Is it not abundantly clear to the right hon. Gentleman that, even with the increase that he indicated might be reached this year, we shall, because of the number of school leavers, find that the number of those getting apprenticeships will fall far short of the number desiring them? Does he realise that this means that a large number of these boys and girls will go into dead-end jobs when they should be taking technical training to fit them for proper apprenticeships?

Mr. Hare

As I think I have indicated already in the House, and as I certainly have in Scotland, there are in Scotland considerable shortages of skilled labour, and it is my constant appeal to employers—and pressure is put on them—to provide as many apprenticeships as possible. I hope that hon. Members on both sides will support me in every way in the efforts I am making in this direction.

Mr. Prentice

Can the Minister be more specific about his hopes for increased numbers of apprenticeships in Scotland? Is the number likely to be proportionate to the increase in the numbers of school leavers?

Mr. Hare

I cannot give the answer to that. There is no way of giving any precise figure, but what I have said in answer to the Question is that I think there should be a good increase in the numbers.

Mr. Hoy

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is because of the lack of these jobs in Scotland that our unemployment percentage is still more than twice that of the rest of Britain, and what we want to know is what he and his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland are doing to put the matter right?

Mr. Hare

I quite agree with the hon. Gentleman that the unemployment rate is higher in Scotland than in England and Wales, but I am glad to say that unemployment in Scotland has fallen to 2.8 per cent., which is a considerable improvement.

25. Mr. Willis

asked the Minister of Labour if he will discuss with the Minister of Education and the Secretary of State for Scotland the possibility of encouraging local education authorities to promote group apprentice schemes, based on local technical colleges.

Mr. Hare

My right hon. Friends have issued circulars encouraging education authorities to provide first-year apprenticeship courses in technical colleges. Though this assistance is not limited to particular types of apprenticeship scheme, it is expected that these courses will be of particular benefit to small firms which find it difficult to provide adequate training facilities except by sharing in co-operative enterprise.

Mr. Willis

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what response there has been to this appeal and, in particular, what has been done in Scotland?

Mr. Hare

If the hon. Gentleman would like me to give him full particulars, I shall certainly let him know. It is probably better to do it in that way.

Miss Herbison

If local education authorities do provide such courses which are so necessary in Scotland, what financial aid will they get from the central Government, because that is of the greatest importance to the working of the general grant?

Mr. Hare

I think that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education will be discussing these matters with local education authorities in England and Wales; and by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland with those in Scotland. I think that these matters come within their purview rather than mine.

26. Mr. Bence

asked the Minister of Labour if he will take steps to establish a national bureau of apprenticeships so that there is full information about the numbers in training and the opportunities which exist.

Mr. Hare

No, Sir. I see no need for this. Information about those entering apprenticeships is already collected on a national basis. Details of the opportunities in industry are know locally to the youth employment offices, and there is already a system for the circulation of vacancies between youth employment officers.

Mr. Bence

No doubt the Minister appreciates our need for a considerable increase in productivity in the engineering industry, but is he aware that many of the apprenticeship schemes are hopelessly inadequate to produce the engineers necessary for the new industries, and the new techniques appearing in modern engineering? Will he not, therefore, undertake a survey to find out how many of our industrial apprenticeships are worthy of the name and likely to turn out top-class skilled men?

Mr. Hare

As I think the hon. Gentleman knows, I am in sympathy with much that he says. As recently as our last debate on this subject in the House, I made it clear that I thought that the time had come when both sides of industry should look in detail at all their apprenticeships, and this is something that I shall certainly try to pursue with both sides of industry.

28. Mr. Ross

asked the Minister of Labour what methods are used by his Department to estimate the number of school-leavers who enter apprenticeships or some other form of organised training for skill.

Mr. P. Thomas

At the time of issue of National Insurance cards to school leavers on their entering employment, a record of the class of employment is made for statistical purposes by the youth employment offices. One of the classifications is apprenticeship or learnership to a skilled craft; another, introduced from the beginning of this year, covers other forms of organised training for skill.

Mr. Ross

While thanking the Parliamentary Secretary for that reply, may I ask whether he appreciates that his Answer to Question No. 14 rather shattered our confidence in the customary reliability of his Department?

Mr. Thomas

No. I think that the statistics are reasonably reliable. In fact, they probably understate the total entry of apprentices, as numbers of boys and girls enter into apprenticeships after previously having had other employment on leaving school.

Mr. Manuel

Does the hon. Gentleman not recognise that his Department should be doing far more on the lines requested by my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock in his Question? As it is, it seems that he can only tell us of young people who take up apprenticeships 12 months after leaving school because they could not previously get into industry. Should not his Department be dealing with these school leavers earlier?

Mr. Thomas

Instructions have recently been given to youth employment officers which strengthen the system so as to ensure that the statistics are as comprehensive as possible.