HC Deb 09 November 1960 vol 629 cc1022-5
28. Mr. Dodds

asked the Minister of Transport if he will state the cost of the M.1 motorway and the estimated cost of the Dartford-Purfleet Tunnel; and how long it is estimated it will take to repay the money which has been advanced towards the cost of the tunnel, so that the tunnel will be free from the need to charge tolls.

Mr. Marples

The M.1 motorway cost about £21.5 million. The estimated cost of the Dartford-Purfleet Tunnel is a little over £11 million.

It is estimated that it will take about twenty years to repay the money advanced towards the cost of the tunnel.

Mr. Dodds

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain for the benefit of the people in south-west Kent why it is that they have got to pay tolls to use a motor road under the Thames and yet the M.1 road is free? Will he also explain to the House why his Department is considering charging tolls on motorways in the future? Will he let people know about the old-fashioned mentality in his Department which wants to go back to the Victorian era?

Mr. Marples

The reason tolls are being charged is because Parliament passed the Dartford Tunnel Act, 1957.

Mr. Dodds

Will the Minister explain that there is a study going on about charging tolls on motor roads in future?

Mr. Marples

To my mind, it is by no means settled what we shall do, but so far as tunnels and bridges are concerned, I think tolls are desirable.

Hon. Members

Why?

30. Mr. Dodds

asked the Minister of Transport, in view of the dissatisfaction arising from the decision to charge tolls for the use of the Dartford-Purfleet tunnel, and the fact that tolls are not to be charged for the new Blackwall tunnel and for the M.1 motorway, if he will state Her Majesty's Government's policy with regard to the imposition of tolls, in view of the confusion in this matter.

Mr. Marples

It remains our policy to charge tolls on certain very costly new bridge and tunnel projects where the present inconvenience to road users will be heavily outweighed by the value of the new facilities. As I said in reply to the hon. Member on 20th July, the new Blackwall tunnel is an exceptional case. For motorways it has been decided that the first part of the network will be toll free. No decision has been taken about later motorways and the question is being further studied.

Mr. Dodds

But how can the right hon. Gentleman deny that there is confusion when we know that the question is being studied whether there will be tolls on the new motorways? There will be none on the M.1 motorway, and because there was an old Blackwall Tunnel the new one, which costs money, will not be charged with tolls. This is a wholly cock-eyed way to run the country's roads and motorways. Anyway, does not the motorist pay enough already without having to pay tolls?

Mr. Marples

I can see that the hon. Gentleman is agitated about this, but the Dartford-Purfleet Tunnel is an entirely new tunnel and the Blackwall Tunnel is not entirely new, and that is the difference.

Mr. Gresham Cooke

Is there not a clear difference of principle between these cases? Does not this bridge and tunnel save the motorist from a long journey round? Therefore, there is understanding of a toll in that case—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"]—whereas the motorway—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ask a Question."]—is parallel to the old road, and, therefore, there is no justification for a toll on the motorway.

Mr. Sydney Irving

In view of the concern felt by a number of local authorities in the area of the Dartford-Purfleet Tunnel, will the right hon. Gentleman receive a deputation?

Mr. Marples

No, I am afraid not now, because a decision has been taken.

Hon. Members

Oh.

Mr. McAdden

While expressing some sympathy with the Question and the point of view of the hon. Member for Erith and Crayford (Mr. Dodds), may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he will bear in mind that the people living in south-east Essex are anxious that the people of Kent should also come to Essex? Will my right hon. Friend realise that tolls, provided that they are reasonable, will be infinitely preferable to the exorbitant rates charged by the British Transport Commission for use of the ferry to Gravesend?

Mr. Marples

I think that it would be wise for me to keep out of this local controversy.

Mr. Mellish

Will the right hon. Gentleman look at the question of receiving a deputation again? Does he not agree that it is usual for a Minister to receive a deputation from local authorities especially when he is asked to do so by an hon. Member? I should have thought that the Minister would at least have received the deputation and listened to what it had to say.

Mr. Marples

The difficulty is that the Act has been passed by the House and there is nothing I can do to change that.

Mr. Dodds

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter again on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.