Clause 17.—(DUTIES OF PERSONS CARRY ING ON PRIVATE HOSPITALS.) (Hansard, 23 June 1960)

§ Mr. Galbraith
I beg to move, in page 11, line 29, at the end to insert: (including facilities for inspection of the hospital)". The effect of the Amendment is to make it plain that the person carrying on a private hospital has a duty to allow the Mental Welfare Commission to inspect the hospital, if necessary, in pursuance of its functions under the Bill. The Amendment meets a point pressed at considerable length by the Opposition in Committee.

§ Mr. Galbraith
I beg to move, in page 11, line 35, after "(2)", to insert: It shall be the duty of the Secretary of State to ensure by regular inspection of any private hospital that that hospital is being properly carried on, and". This Amendment imposes upon my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State the duty to ensure by means of regular inspection that a private hospital is being properly carried on, and it meets an undertaking given in Committee.

§ Mr. Willis
We are galloping along at such a rate that it is rather difficult to follow all the intricacies of the Bill and the changes made, most of which are the result of the words of wisdom spoken in Committee by my hon. Friend.
I cannot understand why, having put down this Amendment, it was necessary to pass the Amendment we made earlier, which the hon. Member said was a drafting Amendment, in page 11, line 29, at the end to insert: (including facilities for inspection of the hospital)". I should have thought that this Amendment makes those words redundant. I do not know whether the Joint Under-Secretary can explain why we should have had to pass the previous Amendment.

§ Mr. Deputy-Speaker
The hon. Member is now talking about an Amendment that we have already passed. We cannot now debate whether that should have been passed or not. We must debate the present Amendment.

§ Mr. Willis
I am grateful for your guidance on this, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I have tried to keep in order, but it has been difficult because of the fact that we disposed of the previous Amendment before reaching this one. I suggest that if we agree to this Amendment there will be a chance for the other place to adopt my suggestion.

§ Mr. Galbraith
No.

§ Mr. Willis
Perhaps the Joint Under-Secretary can explain the point so that, as a layman, I may follow what we are doing to the Bill as we go along. It is going rather too fast for me.

§ Mr. Galbraith
It is going fast only because the Government have gone out of their way to meet the various points made by the Opposition in Committee. We are not trying to slip anything through quickly.
The hon. Member's difficulty is concerned not so much with this Amendment as that to which we have already agreed. The reason for the previous drafting Amendment was that it is more appropriate to refer to the Commission's functions under this measure than to its functions in relation to patients in hospital. The Amendment we are now discussing enables the Secretary of State to carry out regular inspections of a private hospital as distinct from mere visitations; therefore, it is slightly wider in effect. It was for that reason that the previous Amendment had to be moved. I hope that that will satisfy the hon. Member.

§ Mr. Willis
I am not satisfied with that.

§ Mr. Galbraith
It is very difficult to deal with the hon. Member, because he perpetually looks a gift horse in the mouth.

§ Mr. Willis
No. I am glad that this is being put into the Bill. All I was wishing to point out was that it did not appear to me that the previous Amendment was necessary, once we provided that the Secretary of State should make regular inspections.

§ Miss Herbison
The Amendment that we are now discussing places a duty upon the Secretary of State to carry out inspections of these hospitals, and I am glad of that. I hope that he will use the power given him. I have in mind what happened in the case of the private schools in Scotland. In Scotland, we were ready to carry out inspections of these schools years before they were ready in England, but because we had a Tory Government in 1951 we had to wait years before this power was used in Scotland. It is important that the power which the Secretary of State is taking unto himself in this Clause shall be used.
If I may jump back to the other Amendment for a moment, I would point out that that deals with the Mental Welfare Commission, whereas the one we are discussing now deals with the Secretary of State. It is important that both powers should be given to both bodies.

§ Mr. Ross
I do not like the attitude of the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland. After all, here we are making necessary Amendments to the Bill without which it will not be so good a Measure. As I am sure will be accepted by the House, we are laying on the Secretary of State a duty to do something absolutely essential. In the past, we have had experience of responsibilities being laid on Ministers which have not been carried out.
Can the hon. Gentleman tell me how the House is to be kept informed of how this duty has been carried out? Will there be anything in the Annual Report from the Department of Health about the number of inspections of private hospitals which have been made, and so on? We are entitled to ask that this should not be merely a pious Amendment. Suspicion relating to that arises from the attitude of the Joint Under-Secretary and his reference to "looking a gift horse in the mouth" and things of that kind. This is a serious matter. I hope that the hon. Gentleman can satisfy me that not only is this Amendment to be made to the Statute, but that the duty will be carried out.

§ Mr. Galbraith
I beg to move, in page 11, line 39, at the end to insert: (3) Any person authorised as aforesaid may interview any patient in private. 723 The effect of this Amendment is to give any officer authorised by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to inspect private hospitals the right to interview any patient in the hospital in private. The Amendment meets an undertaking given during the Committee stage. I will not use the unfortunate words which gave offence to the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) and I apologise for them. No offence was intended.

§ Mr. Willis
As the Joint Under-Secretary of State did not see fit to answer the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross), I think that before we accept this Amendment we ought to be told how the House of Commons is to be kept informed about what is going on in connection with these hospitals. It would be a matter of courtesy for the hon. Gentleman to give us some information.

§ Mr. Galbraith
This is a duty imposed on my right hon. Friend like many other duties, and the House has its own way of discovering whether the duties are being carried out and, indeed, of imposing the will of the House on my right hon. Friend. That is as far as I can go in answer to the hon. Gentleman.

§ Miss Herbison
Surely it would have been a simple thing to say to my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) that in the Annual Report of the Department of Health, or in some other report, the information for which he asked would be given. It is a matter of such vital importance that hon. Members ought to be kept aware of what is happening and surely it would have been easy for the Minister to say that in a Departmental report or a special report we should be told what is happening under the power which we are according to the Secretary of State.

§ Mr. Galbraith
That aspect is so obvious that I thought it would probably have occurred to the hon. Lady's two hon. Friends and that is why I did not mention it. I thought they were after something rather more complicated.

§ Mr. Dempsey
I consider that the Joint Under-Secretary might be clearer 724 in his attitude over this matter. We hope to see the maximum amount of supervision over the administration of private hospitals. I would welcome that in the interest of the community. But we are aware that there are different kinds of private hospitals and in some an investigation may be resented without Members of Parliament being made aware of the fact. In the interest of the service and of the House of Commons, there should be some means of enabling hon. Members to be told from time to time just how this is being operated. It is reasonable to ask the Minister to incorporate the result of this kind of activity in some booklet or publication.

§ Mr. Maclay
I think that the hon. Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mr. Dempsey) is referring to the Amendment which we accepted previous to the Amendment that we are now discussing.

§ Mr. Dempsey
No, I am discussing the Amendment in line 39: Any person authorised as aforesaid may interview any patient in private.

§ Mr. Maclay
I am sorry.

§ Mr. Dempsey
I am trying to visualise some circumstance which may arise following visits to private hospitals according to the terms of this Amendment. I am anxious to ascertain where hon. Members may obtain knowledge about the results of these visitations. I am in favour of the Amendment, but we should like to know the result of these visitations and I hope they will be reported in some document of which hon. Members may obtain a glimpse.

§ Mr. Ross
We have had a long experience of the silence of the Joint Under-Secretary of State. Hitherto, we have construed it as arising from embarrassment or ignorance, or an unwillingness to speak because he had run out of variations of an unsatisfactory argument. Now we are to understand that his silence means that he entirely agrees with what has been said by hon. Members on this side of the Committee.
The words to be inserted in the Clause Any person authorised as aforesaid may interview any patient in private will apply only if there is someone to conduct the interview and to carry out the duty which we have laid on the Secretary of State. Since this important 725 Amendment hinges on that, it becomes all the more important that we should be informed that this opportunity will be made available for patients in private hospitals by the Secretary of State accepting his responsibility and carrying out his duty to make regular inspections.
I therefore ask the Joint Under-Secretary to ensure that the House of Commons is kept informed that such opportunities have been available. The information should be contained in a paragraph in the Annual Report of the Department of Health, or in some other publication.

§ Mr. Galbraith
I will bear in mind what the hon. Gentleman has said. I do not think that it will be possible to give details of every interview, but certainly, the visitations to private hospitals which take place and that sort of thing is something that would appear in the annual report of the Department of Health so to that extent I can meet the hon. Gentleman.