§ 12. Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the average income of old-age pensioners included in the latest published report of the National Food Survey Committee; and what proportion of that income was spent on food.
§ Mr. GodberIn the National Food Survey, old-age pensioner households are defined as those dependent primarily on their pensions and are thus not a representative sample of retirement pensioners. In 1957, which is the last year 542 for which figures have been published, the average family income, as declared by the pensioners, was approximately £3 7s. 0d. per week or 45s. 6d. per head; and 56 per cent. of that sum was spent on food. The corresponding figures for 1958 were £3 18s. 0d., 53s. per head, and 50 per cent.
§ Mr. ThomsonI thank the Parliamentary Secretary for those figures, but has he noticed the other figures which came from the Stock Exchange this morning showing that thousands of millions of pounds of tax-free capital gains have been made on the Stock Exchange since the election? Does he not feel that it is an affront to the conscience of the nation that, in circumstances like those, a substantial group of old-age pensioners should be counting the halfpennies for essential foodstuffs?
§ Mr. GodberI am not so closely in touch with the Stock Exchange as the hon. Gentleman appears to be. We on this side of the House are just as sympathetic as anyone else towards the needs and requirements of old-age pensioners, who are, of course, considerably better off now than they were when hon. and right hon Members opposite were in power.
§ 13. Mr. Willisasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will invite the National Food Survey Committee to conduct a nation-wide sampling survey into the weekly food budgets of old-age pensioner families in receipt of National Assistance supplementation.
§ Miss Herbisonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what number of old-age pensioner families in Scotland included in the latest Report of the National Food Survey Committee were in receipt of National Assistance supplementation; what was the average income of such families; and how much of that income was spent on food.
§ Mr. Millanasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what number of old-age pensioner families included in the latest Report of the National Food Survey Committee were in receipt of National Assistance supplementation; what was the average income of such families; and what proportion of that income was spent on food.
§ 19. Mr. Woodburnasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT, from the data gathered by the National Food Survey Committee on the food budgets of old-age pensioners, a sample budget showing the weekly expenditure on food of a single old-age pensioner living on the basic pension plus National Assistance.
§ Mr. GodberThe group of families mentioned in these Questions cannot be distinguished, since the National Food Survey does not separate pension supplements paid by the National Assistance Board from other income of old-age pensioner households. The questions on incomes are only incidental to the main purpose of the survey, and it would be impracticable to ask detailed questions on sources of income. The survey covers families of all types, and a special inquiry restricted to one section of the community would not make the best use of its resources.
§ Mr. WillisDoes the hon. Gentleman realise that the results produced by this survey are really based on much too narrow a set of criteria to give any real information about how pensioners live? Will he accept the invitation to try to obtain sufficient information about how the pensioner who is dependent upon his pension alone lives, in order that the House may be able to judge how pensioners are faring in this so-called prosperous era?
§ Mr. GodberWe go to a good deal of trouble to get what information we can. This National Food Survey is a very big operation. If we tried to particularise more, I think it would be very difficult; already there is considerable delay in bringing the figures before the House, and matters would be even more delayed if we tried to go into more detail.
§ Miss HerbisonIn my Question I asked for Scottish figures. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many of these old-age pensioners can have no help at all from their families in Scotland because, in so many cases, the wage earners in those families are themselves unemployed? Further, does he realise that in not trying to obtain more information about these old-age pensioners who have to have help through 544 supplementary assistance from the National Assistance Board he is doing a very great disservice to many thousands of old people in our country?
§ Mr. GodberI do not accept at all that we are doing a disservice in this way. We are putting before the House what information we can obtain, and it is very useful information in this respect. I apologise to the hon. Lady for not giving Scottish figures, but, of course, the facts are the same in regard to both Scotland and England, so far as we can see. I note her point about unemployment in Scotland, but that is not, of course, a matter on which I ought to comment.
§ Mr. MillanIn a previous Answer, the Parliamentary Secretary said that about 50 per cent. of old-age pensioners' incomes was spent on food. Is he aware that in the official cost-of-living index the weighting for food is only 350 points out of 1,000, slightly more than a third? Does not this prove conclusively that the general cost-of-living index has no real relation to the cost of living of old-age pensioners? [HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."] Will the hon. Gentleman convey that to his right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance and ask him to stop refusing the claims of pensioners on the ground of—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."]— references to a cost of living which has no relation at all to the standard of living of old-age pensioners?
§ Mr. GodberSo far as I could gather the hon. Gentlman's supplementary question, I think it covered matters very much outside the scope of my Department. I will convey his comments to my right hon. Friend.
§ 14. Mr. Lawsonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT a few samples of the separate weekly food budgets of old-age pensioners upon which the National Food Survey Committee based its conclusions on the quantities and value of food consumed by old-age pensioners showing at the same time the total income of the sample households and the number of persons contained in each.
§ Mr. GodberI will, with permission, circulate these figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
§ Mr. LawsonI am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for the information he is to give us, but may I draw his attention particularly to certain results of the National Food Survey, where he will find that there is cause for very grave anxiety if the information is to be accepted as an indication of how old-age pensioners are living? Does he realise that the Report is based upon a sample of only 776 families out of the many millions of old-age pensioners in Britain and that, moreover, the income may be as much as £7 per head in each family, which is quite unrepresentative of the circumstances of old-age pensioners living on National Assistance supplementation? May we have information based on a grouping of people living on National Assistance supplementation?
Mr. GudberI have already answered that point. If the hon. Gentleman studies the figures given in my Answer which will be circulated, he will, I think, find more information.
§ Mr. WilleyDoes the Parliamentary Secretary recognise that these figures are 1957 figures and we really ought to make efforts to obtain more up-to-date information? Why will he not accept that there is a good deal of concern about old-age pensioners and old people generally, and that there is a very good case for obtaining further information so that we can decide whether or not there ought to be a special index?
§ Mr. GodberThe point I was trying to make earlier is really the reply to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. If we try to make these things more involved and complicated, we shall only delay the results further. I am sorry that there is this delay, but very complex calculations are involved and there is a tremendous amount of tabulation, which does take a great deal of time. If we seek to spread our net wider, we shall only delay matters more. I accept that there is concern about old-age pensioners and I have indicated that it is shared on both sides of the House at all times. We wish to see old-age pensioners given the best conditions possible. I have already indicated that the record of this Government is a good one in this respect.
§ Following are the figures:
| AVERAGE DOMESTIC FOOD EXPENDITURE OF OLD-AGE PENSIONER HOUSEHOLDS, 1957 | |||||
| — | One man and one woman | One woman only | |||
| Number of households | … | 270 | 391 | ||
| Declared income per household | … | £4 | 2s. | £2 | 13s. |
| Pence per person per week | |||||
| Milk and cream | … | 38.4 | 46.0 | ||
| Cheese | … | 6.8 | 6.9 | ||
| Fats | … | 21.8 | 25.2 | ||
| Eggs | … | 12.9 | 14.7 | ||
| Carcase meat | … | 50.5 | 44.4 | ||
| All other meat | … | 31.3 | 36.2 | ||
| Fish | … | 13.1 | 13.6 | ||
| Fruit | … | 15.6 | 22.7 | ||
| Potatoes | … | 10.1 | 9.6 | ||
| Fresh green and other vegetables | … | 12.2 | 14.1 | ||
| Bread | … | 20.9 | 24.3 | ||
| Other cereal foods | … | 24.2 | 29.2 | ||
| Sugar and preserves | … | 14.8 | 17.0 | ||
| Tea | … | 17.1 | 21.5 | ||
| Other beverages and mis-cellaneous foods | … | 10.0 | 13.2 | ||
| TOTALS | … | 25s. | 0d. | 28s. | 3d. |
§ NOTES:
§ These figures for food expenditure relate to group averages of two different kinds of old-age pensioner households, which experience has shown to be typical. These are households comprising one man and one woman, and one woman living alone. The 116 different kinds of food have been reduced to 15 main categories.
§ Dr. Dickson Mabonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the range of income found among the 776 old-age pensioner families included in the latest Report of the National Food Survey Committee.
§ Mrs. Hartasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the range of expenditure on food found among the 776 old-age pensioner families included in the latest Report of the National Food Survey Committee.
§ Mr. GodberWhile the particulars of weekly income and food expenditure enable satisfactory group averages to be estimated for a period of three months or a year, it would be misleading to quote extreme values which may be affected in any one week by unusual circumstances, such as the depletion or replenishment of larder stocks. More- 547 over, informants are assured that any information regarding individuals will not be disclosed without their consent.
§ Dr. MabonDoes the hon. Gentleman realise that many of us are very dissatisfied because we know that there is no sound statistical basis for the conclusions he draws in that and previous Answers on this subject? No one could make a generalised medical pronouncement, still less a social diagnosis, on such a basis. Will he be reasonable about the matter and accept that this study, if it is to be useful, must really be more extensive to make it a satisfactory basis for any deductions which may be derived from it?
§ Mr. GodberNo, I would not accept those strictures. The National Food Survey gives a great deal of very useful information. This is not invalidated by the fact that I have been unable to give this specific information.
§ Mrs. HartIs the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the average, which is the figure given in the National Food Survey, can conceal a multitude of deficiencies in the diet of those old-age pensioners who come below the average? Will he not accept that it is a matter of considerable public concern that we should be assured that an adequate scientific investigation is made, of which we have the result, so that we may know how those old-age pensioners who fall below the average are living and how many of them there are?
§ Mr. GodberThis is related to consideration of the food nutrition of the country as a whole, and this section dealing with old-age pensioners is valuable in so far as it goes. I do not pretend that it answers all the points raised by hon. Members opposite, but it gives a very fair indication.
§ Mr. WillisIn view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Answers to these Questions, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.