Secondary Education (Hansard, 19 November 1959)

§ 6. Mr. Swingler
asked the Minister of Education if he will set up a committee to examine the merits and demerits of the 11-plus examination and to report on ways and means of providing equality of opportunity in secondary education for all children.

§ Sir D. Eccles
No, Sir. The best means of providing equality of opportunity is to make all secondary schools good in their various ways. This is the objective of the Government's White Paper on Secondary Education.

§ Mr. Swingler
That Answer is all very fine, except that the Minister of Education is cutting down the building programme for secondary schools. Does not he consider that dissatisfaction with and criticism of the 11-plus selective examination is now well-nigh universal and that more and more education authorities, irrespective of the nature of their political control, are endeavouring to find ways and means of avoiding it? In the circumstances, would not it be a good idea for the Minister to set up a committee to give some guidance on the best way in which it might be done?

§ Sir D. Eccles
In the first place, it is not trué that the secondary school programme is being cut down; it is bigger now than ever before. Secondly, many interesting experiments are being made by different local authorities. These we are watching. We are comparing all the results as they come in, and making them available to other local authorities. I think that this is the best way to proceed.

§ Mr. Greenwood
We welcome these attempts to get rid of the 11-plus examination, but does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that what is most objectionable is the fact of segregation at the age of 11 rather than the method by which it is carried out? Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that it is the Government's policy to get rid of segregation at the age of 11?

§ Sir D. Eccles
I could not possibly give a sweeping assurance of that kind.

§ 7. Mr. Swingler
asked the Minister of Education to what extent the number and proportion of children who have passed their fifteenth birthdays and are staying 1316 on at school have exceeded the expectations and estimates of the education authorities this year; and what special steps he is taking to provide additional places in the secondary schools.

§ Sir D. Eccles
The number of pupils aged 15 in maintained schools in January, 1959, corresponded closely with the estimate made the year before. Sufficient places have been provided and the building programme for secondary schools is now larger than at any previous time.

§ Mr. Swingler
Has the Minister examined the figures for the last few years, which show—and it is a well-known fact—that up to now an increased number have been staying on beyond the fifteenth birthday? While it is natural that secondary school programmes should be difficult, because there are far more children at secondary schools, is he sure that provision is being made for an additional proportion of children to stay on beyond the age of 15?

§ Sir D. Eccles
We were out in the estimate by only 4,000, which is extraordinarily small, considering the difficulty of making an estimate. All my predecessors, including myself, have always been ready to approve proposals to provide for the increased numbers of pupils over the age of 15, and we shall continue doing so.

§ Mrs. White
Can the Minister tell the House whether he has made inquiries to discover how many children would stay on after the age of 15 if an adequate maintenance allowance were made available to them?

§ Sir D. Eccles
That is a very difficult inquiry to make, because it is impossible to find out what percentage of parents would so decide, but there is no doubt that allowances are one of the important factors.