HC Deb 24 March 1959 vol 602 cc1122-9
47. Mr. Lewis

asked the Prime Minister whether he will arrange with the leaders of the political parties to have discussions concerning the procedure to be adopted on televising political activities connected with Parliamentary by-elections on the basis that, provided the majority of the candidates taking part are so willing, the by-election activities should be televised by joint agreement and arrangement.

Mr. R. A. Butler

I have been asked to reply.

No, Sir. The initiative for such broadcasts is with the broadcasting authorities. Hon. Members will no doubt have seen the statement made by the British Broadcasting Corporation on 20th March stating that the Corporation has been advised that it would be liable to prosecution under Section 63 of the Representation of the People Act, 1949, if not all of the candidates took part in a broadcast.

Mr. Lewis

Is it not anti-democratic and against the usual run of affairs when, as with the last by-election and the one pending, there are three candidates, the majority being in favour of the broadcast taking place, the minority can, by refusing to take part, prevent the majority having their wish? If the majority of candidates at a by-election signify that they are willing, should not that decide the issue and should not the minority either take part or abstain from going on the programme? Is not that the best way?

Mr. Butler

The situation is not quite as simple as that. We are governed by the Representation of the People Act and by the Television Act, which controls the I.T.A. and which requires that all political programmes shall have equal balance between all parties. In order to carry out the terms of those Acts, it is important that all the parties should agree. If they did not agree, we could not have majority rule, because it would not be consistent with those Acts.

Mr. Gaitskell

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is not just a question of majority rule, but of how we are to interpret the question of keeping a fair balance between the different parties? Is not a new situation now developing in which with two successive by-elections television broadcasts have been vetoed by one party? While I am anxious that this matter should be settled by agreement between the parties, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider talks through the usual channels to see whether the matter can be reconsidered?

Mr. Butler

It is interesting that in several of the by-elections, namely, those at Southend, West, Shoreditch and Finsbury, Morecambe and Lansdale, St. Helens, Wigan and Islington, North, this issue did not arise, while it did arise at Torrington, Harrow, East, and Norfolk, South-West. Any aspect of broadcasting policy can and will be considered and discussed, as has often been the case, but this matter would be governed, as far as I can see, by the terms of the Statutes in question. Therefore, it is rather more fundamental than any of the other matters raised in our discussions. If anybody like the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition himself has any points to put, we should be only too glad to consider them.

Mr. Gower

Can my right hon. Friend explain whether official party broadcasts constitute an exception to the legal requirements of the ordinary case, where if one party is represented, the opposing party must also have a representative present?

Mr. Butler

Nothing is more abstruse, except medieval theology, than the general regulations covering broadcasting. If I apprehend my hon. Friend's supplementary question correctly, an ordinary party political broadcast is allowed for in the programme and is undertaken by the parties on a rota according to a certain number. In fact, I am going to do one tonight and that is an ordinary party political broadcast.

However, on the occasion of a by-election, hitherto the situation has been governed by the terms of the Television Act, which set up the I.T.A. and which demanded balance, and by the terms of the Representation of the People Act, 1949, in relation to the alleged expenses of candidates. Those are the governing Statutes and it has therefore been impossible to proceed in a by-election without agreement. The next Question on the Order Paper deals with a General Election. In the case of a by-election we do not see any way round at present, but if there are any representations, I shall listen to them.

Mr. Grimond

Will the Home Secretary bear in mind that the people most affected are the public and the electorate and that if it should prove that they are to be deprived of their main means of political debate, there must be a case for altering the present law?

Mr. Butler

As Dr. Joad used to say, it depends on what is meant by "main means of debate". There is a variety of means of debate, and I am certain that this would not work unless there were agreement among the parties.

48. Mr. Shinwell

asked the Prime Minister the arrangements he is proposing for televising speeches by hon. Members during the next General Election.

Mr. R. A. Butler

I have been asked to reply.

The right hon. Gentleman may wish to be reminded that the arrangements for political broadcasting at the next General Election which were made by the British Broadcasting Corporation and the Independent Television Authority after joint consultation with the Government and the two Opposition parties were announced by the authorities on 18th March.

Mr. Shinwell

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that several hon. Members, including myself, are not familiar with the details of the arrangements, particularly as regards private Members? In the circumstances, will he set out the details in a White Paper so that we may be fully enlightened? At the same time, can he say how the rights of private Members are to be safeguarded at the next General Election? Are we to apply to the television authorities to appear on television, and are we at the same time to be instructed on how to conduct ourselves on television programmes? What is the position of private Members?

Mr. Ellis Smith

Who is to do the instructing?

Mr. Butler

As this is a matter essentially for the parties, it would not be proper for me to issue this information in a White Paper, but I can certainly arrange for a copy of the statement issued by the authorities to be placed in the Library, if that will be of any assistance to the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends.

As regards the rights of private Members, the right hon. Gentleman has so much influence with his own Front Bench that I feel sure he can influence his right hon. Friends to give him time in their broadcasts on the next occasion. Private Members take part in television broadcasts at the invitation of the authorities, and I must leave it to the discretion of the authorities themselves.

Mr. Shinwell

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have no intention of applying to anybody for permission to appear on television, that I can look after myself in that regard and that I have had sufficient television experience? I am concerned with the rights of private Members in a matter of this sort. Are these matters to be left entirely to the Government Front Bench and to the hierarchy of the Opposition Front Bench? When the General Election comes, what is to be the position of private Members? What are we to do in these matters? Will the right hon. Gentleman explain?

Mr. Butler

If the right hon. Gentleman refers to paragraph 3 of the statement issued by the authorities, he will see that, in addition to the main national series which are run by the authorities, the Corporations will broadcast a series of regional programmes from a number of centres in which selected candidates will take part. Smaller parties may participate according to a qualification to be announced later. Those programmes will be under the discretion of the authorities. There would therefore be opportunities, other than purely party political broadcasts, for people to take part.

Mr. Osborne

Before my right hon. Friend agrees to a large increase in the number of televised political speeches, will he bear in mind the rights of the public who may not be so keen on hearing so many political speeches as some hon. Members allege?

Mr. Butler

We have to remember that the election period is a short and vital one. During that period there will he a number of political broadcasts which in a normal period might be too much for the digestion, but which in this period would be valuable.

Mr. Wigg

Will the right hon. Gentleman dig into his remote Radical days and appreciate the danger of constantly reiterating that agreement has been established by the parties? Does not he realise that in a democracy it is vital that the minority opinion should have an opportunity of making itself heard and that the mere fact that there is agreement in two great concentrations of power does not sanctify that agreement?

Mr. Butler

It does not sanctify it, but it makes it valid as between the partners and the authorities concerned. In relation to minorities, which are so carefully protected in the House by you, Mr. Speaker, I hope that it is possible for the minorities and individual Members to represent their views to the authorities concerned, and if it is any consolation to the hon. Member, who is a champion of minorities and who represents himself with great success, I should say that would be very glad to remind the authorities, in a perfectly constitutional way, of the existence of the demands of hon. Members.

Later—

Mr. Ellis Smith

On a point of order. In reply to supplementary questions asked on Question No. 48 which was put today by my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell), the Leader of the House said that this was a matter for Mr. Speaker.

The Prime Minister has said, in reply to me on another aspect of the matter, that this was a matter for the House. While it may be true that you have not all this material before you, I want to ask you, Mr. Speaker, if you will bear in mind what the Leader of the House said on my right hon. Friend's Question, together with the three Motions which appear on the Order Paper, and if you will give consideration to all that.

Mr. Ronald Bell

Further to that point of order. Is not it a fact that during the period of a General Election there are no hon. Members of this House at all?

Mr. Speaker

My reply to the point of order by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith) is that I do not think that my jurisdiction extends beyond this House and the hon. Members in it. It certainly does not include the Independent Television Authority or the British Broadcasting Corporation. I do not think that I can do very much about it. I think that what the Leader of the House meant was that I will endeavour to the best of my ability to protect the rights of minorities in this House.

Mr. Ellis Smith

With respect, Mr. Speaker, let me emphasise that I understand that Mr. Speaker's duties are to protect not only the rights of minorities but those of private Members while in the House. If Mr. Speaker, when he has an opportunity, will analyse the Motions which appear on the Order Paper, he will see that they deal with the procedure of the House which the Prime Minister said was a matter for the House. In view of the fact that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said that he wanted Parliament to be associated with the Nyasaland Commission of Inquiry, I would remind the House that we want Parliament to be associated with this issue, in which is involved the future democracy of Britain. Therefore, I am asking Mr. Speaker to give consideration to that matter.

Mr. Speaker

I will consider what the hon. Gentleman has said.

Mr. Shinwell

Further to that point of order. While it is true, as the hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. Ronald Bell) said, that during a General Election none of us will be Members of Parliament, we will all be candidates, and presumably all equal in the eyes of the electors. If that be so, cannot we arrange that there will be a fair balance in the provision of General Election facilities as between all candidates, irrespective of what they believe their rights or prospects to be? In particular, is not it part of your responsibility, Mr. Speaker, to ensure that any facilities provided for one section of hon. Members, or for that matter of candidates, are provided for the others? Will you look into the matter?

Mr. C. Pannell

Will you also consider, Mr. Speaker, that all those who have spoken up to now will be fighting the election as either Conservative or Labour candidates, and that none of those people who usually ask to be considered on independent lines will probably be elected unless they fight on one of those tickets?

Mr. Wigg

Is it not the tradition of the House that Mr. Speaker has presided over conferences dealing with matters affecting electoral law? Is it not a fact also that these new techniques of television and sound broadcasting are matters to which the House has not yet given serious consideration although they affect fundamentally the democracy of this country? Is not it a question not of party but of democracy, and therefore, in accordance with the new traditions of the Chair, will you look into the matter very carefully and give the House the benefit of your opinion?

Mr. Speaker

If I can be of assistance to hon. Members in arriving at an agreed solution on a matter upon which opinions are now divided, I shall be glad to do anything I can. I can say no more than that. During a General Election there are no Members of Parliament. I remain Speaker, I suppose, for the purpose of conducting duties unconnected with presiding in this Chamber which have been placed on me by Statute, and for no other reason. I hold on to that shadowy existence until my successor is elected. Anybody occupying the Chair, if asked by the House to help in resolving a dispute, would feel it proper to do what he could.

Mr. Mellish

In view of the fact that you are to consider this matter, Mr. Speaker, it is to be hoped that you will not give priority on television to a Privy Councillor.

Mr. Speaker

In the hypothetical event of anything of that sort happening, I had better not say anything more lest I disclose a certain bias at the outset.