TANGANYIKA

HC Deb 02 June 1959 vol 606 cc137-64

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. J. E. B. Hill.]

9.0 p.m.

Mr. Arthur Skeffington (Hayes and Harlington)

I am grateful for this opportunity to refer to Tanganyika, although I am sorry to have had to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies to be here on the first night after the Recess. However, as I have been trying to discuss Tanganyika since Easter, I felt that I dare not allow this opportunity to pass, particularly as we shall have a little more time than I anticipated, because this debate has started rather earlier in the evening than either the Under-Secretary or I thought would be the case.

I presume to discuss the problems of this territory because I twice had the good fortune to visit it in the space of nine years. On both of those occasions, and in between, I have tried to maintain contacts with various people, and I think I can claim that I now have a number of friends among all the different inhabitants in the territory. With them, I hope that this territory, which is, next to Nigeria, the largest territory in the Colonial Commonwealth, will make the rapid progress which seems to be possible. In any event, I am sure we shall all agree that Parliament has responsibilities and an interest in this matter and it is right that from time to time on occasions like this we should use the opportunity to discuss the inevitable problems in an emergent territory of this kind.

I want first to touch upon a subject which may not seem of very great consequence but to which I attach some importance, and that is the increasing destruction of the fauna of the territory. There are several aspects of this matter. In the first place, as I mentioned in a Question on 5th May, it is a fact that certain species which we in this country would never regard as vermin, such as the hippopotamus, zebra, wild boar and other animals, are so classified in that territory. The result is that hunting on a very considerable scale has been permitted with consequent destruction, I am informed, to a point almost of extinction in certain parts of the territory.

Furthermore, so far as these animals are classified as vermin, the methods by which they are either caught or killed are under no supervision at all. It is possible for hunters to be cruel without involving any penal sanction or any concern amongst a considerable number of people. I think this aspect of cruelty is particularly discouraging to people in the territory like Mrs. Slater, who is associated with the Tanganyika Law Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, who have succeeded not only in building a first-class organisation, but in giving to thousands of Africans a crusading zeal about animal welfare. When one considers all the educational work of this organisation on the one hand, and at the same time the cruel methods of hunting which are allowed on the other hand, one sees what an illogical situation exists, and it is a very bad one too.

I am also wandering whether it is necessary to give licences to export thousands of monkeys from this area. I am told that there is a white trader, a Mr. Peters, who pays £2 or £3 a head for every monkey brought to him. We have also heard of what happens sometimes in the transit of these animals, although I am sure this is not generally the case. Hon. Members will probably remember a case involving a whole planeload of monkeys. Even when transport is considered to be desirable, I can remember seeing at Mombasa cages of these wretched creatures waiting to be shipped, and I must say that the expression on their miserable faces was, I thought, a standing reproach to us.

It may be said that it is necessary for the export of these animals to continue because they are needed for medical research. If that is so, we must accept it, but I very much hope that the commercial element, even so, will be taken out of the business. If it is necessary, it should not be a business in which the profit motive plays an important part.

I come now to questions of wider policy, and I wish to refer first to economic developments in the territory. In September, 1957, I heard the late Governor, Lord Twining, point with considerable pride to the expansion which has taken place during the ten years from 1947 to 1957. He was able to show that the production of sisal had increased by 70 per cent., the production of coffee had increased by over 30 per cent., of cotton by more than 200 per cent., of tea by nearly 300 per cent., and of tobacco by over 250 per cent. There had been an increase in the amount of shipping coming into Tanganyika harbours from 1,955 million tons to 5,122 million tons—a very considerable increase.

As both the present Governor and the previous Governor admitted in the Legislative Council, this rapid expansion was undoubtedly stimulated by two things. One, of course, was the scheme which has been rather vulgarly called the groundnut scheme. Undoubtedly, this scheme not only brought considerable capital to Tangayika, but it brought also trained personnel, scientists and people skilled in management, some of whom have stayed there. The Parliamentary delegation, of which the hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Page) was the leader on that occasion, will remember meeting some of these people at various places, some very far from the normal centres of life in Tanganyika and doing an excellent job.

I am glad to put once more on the record what I have mentioned on other occasions in the House, that, quite apart from the physical results of the scheme which can be seen today in the ports, railways, hospitals and roads, and in the holdings of the Tanganyika Agricultural Corporation in various parts of Tanganyika where crops are now growing in areas previously desolate and tsetse-ridden, the additional capital and skilled people gave a very great fillip to the territory. I believe that history will probably regard the Overseas Food Corporation scheme as one of the turning points in the economic development of Tanganyika. The other factor which stimulated this rapid advance was the very high price of sisal following the end of the war consequent upon the new needs for sisal and the fact that sisal was an alternative to many of the fibres previously used.

From this increasing tempo of production, of course, the revenues of the territory rose and many of the development schemes so essential to the country were thought and planned and had begun to come into operation. Unfortunately, we now have a different situation. In the current financial year, the people of Tanganyika face a deficit of more than £1 million between their revenue and their expenditure.

Mr. Graham Page (Crosby)

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is aware that the gross product of the Colony is continually rising. Despite low commodity prices, it has risen between 1957 and 1958 from about £162 million to over £168 million. That is a very healthy sign.

Mr. Skeffington

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I was coming to that point. Although there is this deficit, I wonder whether the authorities have been too pessimistic in their forecast, because, as the hon. Gentleman said, there has been a growth in the revenue, and in addition one must remember that when a deficit of £700,000 was forecast for the year 1957–58 there was a surplus at the end of the year of £137,000. I want to say something about the consequences of the anticipated deficiency in a moment. I hope that the figures will not be as bad as have been forecast.

This brings me to my next point. What steps are envisaged now to stimulate production in the more difficult world conditions that exist? What action is being taken to bring in new industries and to get additional capital which undoubtedly the territory must have if it is to make progress socially and which I am sure is necessary if there is to be stability in constitutional development? I believe that there are some plans in relation to the development of the sugar industry. I do not know whether the Minister will be able to give any information on that point. Is there anything yet to report about oil development? I know that one company has spent more than £1 million in the territory in this connection. I am sure that we all hope that Tanganyika will have the success which has been recently reported from Nigeria. Undoubtedly the exploitation of a mineral of that kind would add enormously to the internal resources of the territory.

We are told that Tanganyika is extremely rich in minerals, although many of them are difficult to get at; they are inaccessible. At Dodoma there is one of the finest geological survey units which can be found anywhere in the world. The people on the staff are not only first-class professional men but are devoted to their work. They have reported most interesting finds and developments. I wonder how far it has been possible in the last two years for developments to take place, because, again, this is one of the obvious ways in which the ordinary revenues of the territory can be augmented with consequent benefit to its inhabitants.

In dealing with this aspect, I should like to refer to the part which is being played by the co-operative movement. In December, 1957, we had a short discussion in this House about the work which is being done. I suppose that there are few countries in the world where cooperative development has taken place so rapidly and, on the whole, so successfully. I believe that there are now 470 co-operative societies in Tanganyika. That is an increase of sixty-four even since I was there two years ago. There are now more than 300,000 registered members of co-operative societies. That is equal in number to the total labour force employed in Tanganyika. I do not say that they are the same people, but it is an indication of the magnitude of the movement and its growth since the war. Its share capital and reserves are now more than £2 million.

When we discussed this matter in December, 1957, the then Minister was able to confirm that no less than one-fifth of the exports of Tanganyika were through the agency of the co-operative movement. I am sure that Members on both sides of the House believe that this sort of development is ideal for an emerging people, because the idea of a society in which all are members very often fits into the pattern of life to which they are accustomed. They do the work and they share the profit and the dividends. At the same time, the State can ensure that certain protective mechanisms are at work so that it is difficult for the people to be exploited or for their funds to vanish, as sometimes may happen. All this is the ordinary characteristic of a co-operative society that makes it particularly suitable to people who, naturally, have been suspicious sometimes in the past about their own exploitation.

When I was last in Tanganyika, I had discussions with the then Governor about the need for a co-operative union. There are, of course, failures in this movement, as might be expected. Some societies have not had enough experience or sufficient financial backing or they want help in policy at an early stage. This is something which it is difficult for a Government Department to do, although the co-operative advisers in the co-operative department of the Tanganyika Government have done a first-class job.

With a movement of this size and with the potentialities that obviously exist, an organisation comprising all the societies in the area is now called for so that they can have not only a common policy and common representation in meeting the Government, but can take their part with the co-operative movement in the rest of the world, which would give them great assistance and help. That is something which an individual society cannot organise and in which it needs the help of an official set-up of that kind. I raised this matter in December, 1957, and I shall be glad to know whether there has been any development.

Consequent upon the threatened deficiency of £1 million in the revenues—although there is ground for hoping that existing fears may be a little pessimistic—I hope that a series of panic measures will not be taken throughout the territory. Any general setback in social services—in education and in welfare, for example—would be the worst possible action to be taken at this stage, when so many developments are favourable to the future of Tanganyika.

I do not, of course, have all the facts to know why the decision was taken, but I am bound to call attention to the Governor's speech to the Legislative Council on 17th March, in which he said: It grieves me therefore to have to tell Honourable Members that I have had no alternative but to direct that despite our straitened circumstances increased provision should be made for the Territory's Police Force in drawing up the Budget for the next financial year. Some of us visited the various camps and training centres of the police force, which maintains a very high standard, and one knows that from time to time the police may have difficult jobs to do. Normally, however, unless one was facing an emergency situation, I would not have thought that an increase in the police force would be the first of the priorities but would be lower down the list. Even at this stage, believing, as I do, that Tanganyika is not a lawless territory or one which is noted for violence, I hope that there may be second thoughts about this.

I notice that when a newly-elected European member was seconding the welcome to the speech by the Governor, he said in the Legislative Assembly: This country of ours…is not a turbulent country; they are not a warlike people, and I do feel that this might give quite the wrong impression, both inside and outside the Territory. Referring to the point made by the Governor about increasing the police force, he wished that less emphasis had been placed on the prevailing disrespect for law and order, because I feel that it is only incidents that come up here and that Tanganyika is traditionally a law-abiding, peaceful country I hope it will not be thought that I intend to be provocative. I do not, because I do not know all the facts. All I am saying is that when an elected European member can say that, it gives to those who have had a chance of visiting the territory and seeing something of its problems the impression that this is not the sort of territory which is on the verge of civil war or where there is likely to be recurring violence on a wide scale. Therefore, I think it is discouraging to find that, despite the difficulty of the deficit to which I have referred, such very high priority is being given to the increased expenditure on the police force. I would certainly question the wisdom of that, although, of course, I may well be wrong, because, as I say, I have not access to all the reasons for this decision.

I wish very briefly to refer to the new land policy. I note from the Review of Land Tenure Policy, Part I, Tanganyika Government Paper No. 6. 1958, that there is a recommendation that in certain circumstances on African-held lands, held on ordinary customary tenure, it should be possible for a freehold tenure to exist whereby an individual African can have all the rights normally pertaining to freehold territory. I gather from the proposals in this Paper that any attempt by an African to sell to a non-African would have to secure the Governor's permission. I think that is absolutely right, because if that were not the case one might find that Article 10 of the Trusteeship Agreement would be breached, and that land would be parting permanently from the Africans for whose benefit the land is supposed to be held, and, I am sure, is being held, by the Government.

This announcement was made only in 1958, and I doubt whether very much has yet transpired. I should be glad if we could be given some information about that policy. I can appreciate and I am sure the House will appreciate that there are circumstances in which a better economic use of land could be made by individual cultivation than by tribal cultivation, but again, as the Government Paper properly points out, there are great dangers, too. There are dangers, if the holder of the land wishes to raise money on it, even if he sells to another African. I can see a number of problems arising in the future if there is a rapid dispossession of the land by those who have been granted the freehold. Certainly in my view it would be dangerous if it passed to non-Africans.

I now refer to some of the constitutional changes which were forecast in the Governor's speech on 17th March. Even though we are less pressed for time tonight than we are usually on the Adjournment there is still not time in which to attempt to make all the comments I should like. They are all probing comments, because one can only put forward views about the proposals as they strike one. If one appears to be critical it is so often because all the facts are not known to one. It is one of the advantages of a debate of this kind that one can elicit information.

The Governor referred to four constitutional changes. In the first case he referred to the need for adequate representation of the main minority communities. The impression I got from current political thought on a pretty wide scale led me to wonder whether, although there were main minority communities, as they are called in the Legislative Council, the emphasis was not unfortunate in so describing them. Of course, one must safeguard them, and. indeed, the policy statements of my own party have laid very great stress on the fact that they must be safeguarded, particularly in the stage approaching independence. I should have thought that in this multi-racial territory, with peaceful prospects before it and a very good record of co-operation on the whole between the various communities, it would have been better to have referred to Tanganyikans, particularly in constitutional developments, even if one had to make necessary safeguards in the Constitution.

I was a little dissatisfied to see this phrase, as in another proposal—proposal 2—one of the questions which the Constitutional Committee is to consider is whether there should continue to be members of Legislative Council representing such interests as the Governor may think fit… I suppose that is an indication of the work which the Committee has to do, but again one would hope that in considering group interests of one kind or another the emphasis would be given to the special aspect of some Tanganyikans rather than giving, as might be thought, the impression of a perpetual right to certain minority groups. This I think would be wrong.

I wanted to comment particularly on the third recommendation: To recommend whether, within the general principles of a qualitative franchise, any changes in the present qualifications for candidates and voters will be desirable; and, if so, what those changes should be. As the House will be aware, a series of elections have now taken place and have resulted in the overwhelming and indeed universal victory of Tanganyika African National Union candidates, or (hose who stood with T.A.N.U. support. In fact, the Union had success all over the country. One of T.A.N.U.'s main planks was universal adult suffrage. Therefore, this sort of reference, not to consider whether there should be a new principle of franchise, but only to recommendations within the general principle of a qualitative franchise, seems to me a trifle provocative, and quite wrong.

In the Labour Party document on multiracial countries—and again I put this forward not for the sake of controversy but to be clear about our attitude—we state that: The common electoral roll is the vital test of political democracy in the plural society. I think that from every point of view insistence upon a qualified franchise is wrong. It is wrong, in the first place, because it engenders suspicions. It is thought to be unfair even when it is not, and I am certain that the arrangements made for registration in Tanganyika are as fair as human ingenuity can make them. But it is so easy to whip up feelings about this system when large numbers of people are excluded from the vote. It maximises difficulties which need not be there at all.

It leads to extraordinary results. One finds in some of the Asian communities grown-up men living at home with their parents who, because they are not heads of households, or because they cannot qualify in other respects for the franchise, have no vote. This cannot be sensible or good. There are also difficulties of registration with various categories of qualifications. The arrangements are more complex and long-winded, and more paperwork is required than would be the case if there were a plain straightforward system. If one is serious about Parliamentary democracy, the great thing to do is to encourage as many people as possible to register and to give the vote to all genuine Tanganyikans living within the territory.

As it is quite true that more than 90 per cent. of the population do not live in large towns or communities in Tanganyika, it is equally true that probably a very large number of African Tanganyikans would never register, but a universal roll for electors could be coupled with a great education and civic drive. Let us really tell people what Parliamentary democracy is about, what their obligations are, and the part that everyone has to play. In that way we should get rid of suspicion and rob the opponents of democracy of the opportunity of suggesting that elections are being rigged in favour of the property class or of a minority group. Furthermore, a great campaign of that kind would have repercussions throughout the world, even those parts which are not free, because here would be a territory carrying out a campaign on a large scale which showed that it believed in the democratic principle and demonstrated that we could undertake real educational programmes like those we hear about in Iron Curtain countries.

For all those reasons, administrative and democratic, it seems to me that insistence upon the qualitative franchise is wrong. I am not saying that at this stage we would have to break down the arrangements for candidates of the three races being returned. The great thing would be first to make everyone a voter and then we could proceed to break down the other qualifications which now exist.

I apologise for speaking for longer than I meant to do, because there has been more time available. Finally, I hope that the Government of Tanganyika and our Colonial Office will recognise that in Julius Nyerere, of the Tanganyika African National Union, we are fortunate in having a leader and a movement both imaginative and democratic. After talks here and in Tanganyika with him and some of his followers, I see no reason to qualify that view. His objective, briefly stated in his own words, is ultimately an independent Tanganyika based upon the model of British Parliamentary democracy. In a world which is full of totalitarian impulses, of strong nationalist feelings, one would hope that this movement would have been encouraged in every possible way. I am not suggesting that it has not been encouraged but there have been incidents, which I have taken up by correspondence, with which I will not now weary the House, concerning individual T.A.N.U. branches. I am prepared to admit that some individuals may sometimes have acted foolishly, because that is inevitable in the circumstances.

It would be wrong, however to give the impression, and I hope no such impression will be given, that the Government are hesitant about T.A.N.U. that they will not give it help, that they do not welcome its attitude and programme. It is almost unique to have this view expressed with such moderation by a movement which really believes in Parliamentary democracy. Certainly it is unusual to find this attitude in Africa, so I hope we shall not make the mistake of being too hesitant in moving forward. As history has shown, hesitancy in this kind of change is its own worst enemy. If we appear to make grudging concessions all the time, we encourage people to do things the violent way rather than to do them the co-operative way, because violence so often seems to get results when peaceful methods fail. I could give examples if I wanted to be provocative, but I do not.

Here we have a territory which, because of its land tenure in the past, because of the nature of the Africans who inhabit it, provides an opportunity for progressive and peaceful development. Tanganyika could be a model for the whole of Africa, and tonight I am trying not only to get answers to questions but to make the plea that, in the favourable circumstances which still exist, we should not neglect any opportunities of getting the maximum cooperation of all people, so that its future prosperity may become a reality.

9.35 p.m.

Mr. Graham Page (Crosby)

I wish I had anticipated that there would be time for me to intervene in this debate. Now that there is time, I cannot resist the opportunity to speak, but I wish I had been wise enough to put my thoughts into more orderly fashion beforehand.

I wish to take up one or two of the points made by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. Skeffington). He and I had an intensely interesting time in Tanganyika several months ago. We learnt about the territory, and we came back with ideas and a great respect for what was being done there. As the hon. Member said, the territory is unique. In its possibilities, its political, economic and social development it is travelling along peaceful lines, and I hope that from this House we can encourage what is being done there.

In the political development there are difficulties, and these arise from the fact that there is not a Government party which can put forward by way of propaganda, in the best sense of the word, the Government's policy. The Government consists to a great extent of civil servants, and the district commissioners, on whom the administration of the country relies, are civil servants prohibited from giving guidance on Government policy. There is the difficulty that, if ill-minded persons exist, they have complete freedom to put over unfairly an opposition policy whereas the men who try to guide the native public—the district commissioners—must guide them merely as civil servants, and although the native population look to them frequently for guidance in Government policy, the district commissioners are restricted in putting it over in a propaganda fashion. I would not necessarily ask for a change in that situation, but it is a difficulty in making Government policy known to the people of Tanganyika that we must realise.

As the hon. Member said, we have cooperation from T.A.N.U., the primarily African political party. Julius Nyerere leading that party, although he has at times been very critical of the Government, has co-operated to a great extent. I believe that he believes that the future of Tanganyika is, I do not say multiracial, but non-racial, that Tanganyika will be governed by Tanganyikans whether they are African, European or Asian. In that connection, I think it is not sufficiently realised in this country that it is not a simple problem of black and white in Tanganyika. There are many communities, but the three main categories are European. African and Asian.

The way in which the Asian population has contributed to both the social and the economic advance of the territory is phenomenal. The generosity of the Ismaili community and the Asian population in general is astounding. They are really Tanganyikans. Perhaps this does not wholly apply to the Indian population. The Indian always keeps India as his home, but the Ismailis are Tanganyikans and have done a great deal for their country. It is on the Asian population in general that the commerce and, to some extent, the professions of the territory greatly rely. If we in this country do not realise the importance of the Asian contribution to the development of Tanganyika, and if we do not see that it is properly protected, I fear that the country will not continue to develop as it has done.

On the economic side of the development, there were two points which particularly struck me and the rest of our mission at the time. One was the way in which small groups of individuals were prepared to devote their lives—very hard lives—to the difficult types of development. We went miles into the wilds of the country and found a handful of men working on irrigation schemes and devoting their lives to them and with no other interest. The schemes were immense and will mean a terrific advance for the country's agriculture.

We also saw great developments in the co-operative schemes, particularly with coffee. That seems to be the type of development which particularly suits the African. I think that that is because it is a transitional development from the chieftainship regime, to which he has been used, to our idea of democracy. The producer co-operatives are a training ground for democracy in that area and I hope that we shall be able to encourage them as much as possible.

The great work that the missions have done in social development has been not taken over but built upon by the Government. Schools for the Africans are not yet nearly sufficient and there is very much to be done, but the ground is being covered. The proportion of the population receiving education is increasing all the time and the education being given seemed to us to be most satisfactory. There was an impressive development of hospitals particularly that at Dar-es-Salaam, We do not have modern hospitals like that in this country, and Tanganyika is becoming well served in that way.

All that social development must be based on economic development. The development of the territory depends upon political, economic and social development going hand in hand. I fear that we may not be sufficiently encouraging economic development. The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington mentioned the geological survey unit at Dodoma. That unit has gained an immense amount of information and knowledge about the country's possibilities.

There are great possibilities in the pyrochlore mine further to the west in the Southern Highlands. With a little assistance, the side products from that mine could be used in the production of fertiliser for the centre of Tanganyika which would make a great deal of difference to agriculture. I understand that it is a matter only of bringing sulphuric acid to work on the pyrochlore to make a side product which could be used for fertilising millions of acres.

Also in that area there are possibilities of both coal and steel production. If we are to develop that production, the first thing to do is to extend the railway. Anyone who has been to Tanganyika would know that one of the first things one discusses in Tanganyika is the extension of the railway across the centre and also down to the south-west. I do not think that any real economic development can come from those parts of the territory which hold the greatest possibilities unless we are prepared to invest in the extension of that railway. Then we could get greater production of coal, steel and pyrochlore—with fertiliser as a sideline—and the development of sugar production and of the minerals which are being discovered in the western part of the Territory. A tremendous research scheme is going on there at present and there are great possibilities of mineral production in the western part of the territory.

I do not think there can be any better farming land or better farmed land anywhere in the world than in the north of the territory. The farmers there need a certain amount of protection by the Government, which at times they have sought in vain. We found among some of them the threat of farming in order to get out. Unless they receive better encouragement from the Government, they might decide to take everything from their lands and then leave. I hope that will never happen, because since the war they have developed the lands there into very fine farming lands. The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington asked about oil. The search for oil was proceedings while we were there and the prospects seemed good. I do not know if my hon. Friend will be able to tell us anything more about that.

There is no doubt that in all these spheres, mineral and agricultural, there are great economic possibilities. It is on those economic possibilities that the social development and political development of the country must be based. Otherwise, the political development may overrun itself. I think that it should be taken as steadily as possible. Let us be frank; the African in Tanganyika is not fully ready to take over the government of that country. There are no African lawyers, no African doctors and very few Africans in what we in this country call the "white collar and black coat class", but they are being educated to that and will come to it in time, perhaps in a generation

If the development of the country is taken steadily, I am sure that we shall be able to produce there a non-racial community who will disregard entirely any division between European, Asian and African and look upon themselves entirely as Tanganyikans. That was said to us time and again while we were there by Asians, by African's and by Europeans. They regarded themselves as Tanganyikans.

One way of assisting the Europeans would be the provision of the schooling for European children. If we are to encourage good men from this country to go to Tanganyika and assist in its economic and political development, we must provide them with the amenities of the home country. At present, most of them have to send their children back to this country to be educated. I believe that St. George's College has been completed and will make provision for many of them.

I am not asking for separate European schools; St. George's College is quite rightly a mixed school. I am asking for good schools of the same educational quality as the public schools in this country. That will attract men to Tanganyika to help in its development. This is an extremely important point amongst those Europeans out there. Some of them, because they have to send their children back to this country for so many years and thus to break up the family life, are not prepared to stay out there themselves. If good schools are provided out there the good men from this country will go to Tanganyika to help both its economic and its political development.

I am sure that if progress is taken steadily, without any panic either in Tanganyika or in this country, we shall produce a peaceful non-racial community. It can be a unique example of the development of a Colony.

9.52 p.m.

Mr. James Griffiths (Llanelly)

By the accident of our timetable we find ourselves with some time to discuss Tanganyika. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. Skeffington) and the hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Page) on their contributions to the debate. They have both had the privilege of visiting Tanganyika more recently than I, although I have had the privilege of visiting the country and for this reason I rise to emphasise some of the points that they have made.

My hon. Friend said that we have territories associated with us on each side of the African Continent. In West Africa, Nigeria will attain full independence as a Federation next year. Tanganyika, too, has a special place because it is a Trust Territory. It is the old German East Africa of pre-1914 days. The mandate was entrusted to us at the end of the 1914–18 war and is still entrusted to us by the United Nations. In Tanganyika, as both hon. Members said, we have our best chance in Africa. I have always said that. It is a large territory and it is believed that it has the resources upon which a very strong, viable economy can be built. That belief is becoming confirmed by the discoveries we make. It has a very fine people. It is fortunate in that almost from the beginning, and certainly in recent years, racial feeling has not been a problem, and we hope that it will not become a problem. Undoubtedly, there is very good co-operation.

The only criticism I would make is to question whether it was wise for the hon. Member for Crosby to begin to make distinctions between the Ismailis and the Indians. Racial feeling is so good in Tanganyika that perhaps, on reflection, he will think that it is not wise for any of us to begin to make differences between two communities both of whom belong essentially to that Continent. Racial feeling there is good.

Mr. Page

There was no suggestion of racial feeling between the two. I was thinking more of the capital employed. The Indian sends his capital to India. I wanted to stress the importance of the capital which the Ismailis have put in the country.

Mr. Griffiths

I accept what the hon. Gentleman has said.

I wish to emphasise two points made by my hon. Friend. First, I hope that serious consideration will be given to the suggestion he made, I gather not for the first time, that something equivalent to what we know in this country as the co-operative movement should be established in Tanganyika. One of the most encouraging developments in all the Colonial Territories since the end of the Second World War has been the development of co-operation. I do not know what the latest figures are, but it has been a continuous growth.

From my short experience as Colonial Secretary and my visits to the territories, I have always been convinced, and have sought to express my conviction, that the development of the co-operative movement in all its different aspects—producers' co-operatives, distributors' marketing co-operatives, co-operatives on the lines we adopt in this country—has a very important part to play.

I put one point above everything else. What we are seeing and facing in all these territories are the problems of the transition from a tribal society to what we hope will be a modern democratic society. This is a very important transition. History has compelled us all to face the fact that this transition must be made in a very short time. We cannot help that. From the day we went to these territories with our industrial methods, our schools, our colleges, our religion and everything else, we began to break up the tribal life. I believe that there is a growing feeling among large numbers of people that perhaps one of the disservices we have done is that we have broken up the tribal life with all its values before we replaced it with our own kind of life and have left, perhaps, a moral no-man's land.

I have always felt that if we could develop among the peasant farmers and others a strong co-operative movement we should be making the transition easier, for there is something in the cooperative movement, in joining together and working together, which will carry into the new society we hope to build some of the real values of the tribal society which are worth while preserving.

Therefore, I hope that we shall continue to give encouragement to the co-operative movement and to the establishment of co-operative societies. In addition, the stage must have been reached now in Tanganyika and elsewhere when these individual co-operative societies need the services of a central agency. That is what the co-operative movement does in this country. We have cooperative societies all over the country. There is the Co-operative Wholesale Society, which supplies them with the goods they have to dispose of, and there is the Co-operative Union, which provides them with common services, and that is very important.

I add my voice and support to the suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington that serious consideration should be given to the encouragement of every possible means of establishing the co-operative movement. That is the way to link the co-operative societies into a movement which will play in the years ahead as important a part as it has played in the past. I hope very much that the plea of my hon. Friend will make those responsible for the administration in Tanganyika—the Secretary of State, the Under-Secretary and the Colonial Office—realise how important it is to give every encouragement—certainly to give fair play—to the development of the political organisation which we know as T.A.N.U. and its leader, Julius Nyerere.

I think that we are very fortunate in having him as leader of this organisation. It must be six or seven years ago since I was on a visit to Tanganyika. One day in Dar-es-Salaam a member of our administration who shall be nameless said to me, "I would like you to meet a young African teacher. I believe that he will play an important part in the political life of this territory." He was then a teacher in one of the schools not far from Dar-es-Salaam. The member of our administration made arrangements to bring this young man to meet me at Dar-es-Salaam. That was the first time I met him. He was Julius Nyerere. Here, not more than seven years ago, if as long, was a young man, a very good teacher, who was beginning to emerge as a political leader and who has since become a figure of very considerable political importance——

It being Ten o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Gibson-Watt.]

Mr. Griffiths

Perhaps I may repeat what I have said before. We have an opportunity to meet young men from Africa who come to our colleges and universities. We shall probably meet some of them this week. How important it is for us to realise that, in meeting them, we are meeting those who will be the leaders in Africa in five or six years' time. It is very important that they should go back from this country with happy memories. If they go back with unhappy memories—and, perhaps, with a chip on their shoulder—of a thoughtless act of racial superiority committed in their young days, that can mean trouble and turmoil, perhaps, for a whole Colony in the future—just because those emerging leaders have felt themselves treated here as something less than human beings.

Julius Nyerere is a very fine character. He is a young man of very great ability. and a young man who has led T.A.N.U. on real democratic lines. I think that the results of the recent elections show quite clearly that it is the confidence of the Africans in their present leadership that will lead them along the lines of constitutional development, with our help and encouragement, and the establishment of a successful democratic society in Tanganyika.

I felt privileged to meet Julius Nyerere at the beginning of his career. I rejoice at his present position of influence, and I am very proud that he has led his followers on lines which, I believe and fervently hope, will one day see a Tanganyika of which he will be Prime Minister; a Tanganyika in which a democratic society is emerging towards fullness. No small part in that, as I hope, very happy eventuality, will be due to this young man's qualities of leadership.

I know that all those of us who have had the privilege to visit Tanganyika, with its great possibilities, watch its progress with great interest, and look forward to that progress being continued on the peaceful lines that it has so far followed, so that Tanganyika will become a nation in Africa in which it will have been our privilege to have played some part in creating.

10.3 p.m.

The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Julian Amery)

The news that the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. Skeffington) had secured the Adjournment tonight reached me at the end of last week as I returned to Georgetown from a journey into the interior of British Guiana. I cannot say that I was enthusiastic about the news, more especially as I knew that I would return to England only today. Nevertheless, the debate has, if I may say so, been a very fortunate and valuable one, and the speeches on both sides have shown the great confidence that those taking part in the debate feel in the progress of Tanganyika, and of its African leadership.

I join wholeheartedly with the sentiments expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mr. Page), by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths), and by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington. We have had both good and bad experiences with emerging African nationalism n different parts of the Continent. We have had good ones in Ghana and Nigeria, and, perhaps, less fortunate ones in Kenya and Nyasaland, but it looks to me—and this is my hope and faith—as if the pattern in Tanganyika is following the line of development of what we have seen happening in West Africa, and more recently, perhaps, in the elections in Northern Rhodesia.

The speeches tonight have traversed quite a wide field, and I shall try to answer the different points raised. If I fail, I hope that I shall earn some exculpation from the fact that, as I have said, I got back to England from the West Indies only this morning, and have not been able to probe all the different issues as deeply as I should have liked.

The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington opened his remarks by expressing concern for the conservation of the fauna of Tanganyika. I think that we all share, and sympathise with, his interest in this problem. At the same time, he knows what farmers feel about animal depredations. We have had here in this country very strong feeling expressed by the farming population about the rabbit, and the attendant horrors of myxomatosis have not really softened the hearts or the views of the farming population on this subject.

Yet the problem is much more acute in Africa, where it is not just a case of injuring production or profits, but where we have to deal with a subsistence economy and where the food which an animal eats or the crops which it wrecks may mean fewer meals for the human beings concerned. Quite frankly, I think that we have to move fairly carefully because we may not get the African cooperation if we try to have 100 per cent. protection of animals which are destructive in some cases of crops. I think that we might undo the efforts going on at the present time to persuade the villagers that it is important to foster fauna conservation, both for its own sake and for the ultimate development of tourism and other industries. A good deal is being done. The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington referred to lions, zebra and hippopotamus being labelled as vermin. This is only in a few areas of the vast mass of Tanganyika. In the overwhelming majority of the territory they are protected by law.

The Secretary of State recently approved a grant of £182,000 from the Colonial Development and Welfare Fund for the establishment of a technical unit in the Ngorongoro conservation area. This will undertake not only pasture improvement and water and forest development but also game conservation and will be linked with the development of the Serengeti National Park, so I think that this will do something on the lines on which the hon. Gentleman was speaking.

When the hon. Gentleman spoke of the export of monkeys he was perhaps a little exaggerating the figures. He spoke of thousands upon thousands. I find that only fifty-six of the vervet monkeys used for the manufacture of polio vaccine were exported last year and none has been exported in the first two months of this year.

Mr. Skeffington

That is in only one type of monkey.

Mr. Amery

This is the monkey which is exported for polio vaccine and is the one about which a good deal of comment has taken place. These are the figures such as I have been able to get them. I think that if we were to try to go further than we have done, we might need a stronger police force and the hon. Gentleman was deprecating even the small increase in police that we suggest at the present time. I do not think that the police force is a very large one. At present the ratio of police to the population is one to 1,700 whereas in Uganda it is one to 500. This is one of the least policed territories in the world.

The reason a small and modest increase is sought at the moment is precisely the one which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Llanelly put his finger on. With the transition from tribal to modern societies some of the old disciplines are breaking down and a certain number of new laws and regulations are in force for modern industrial and urban types of civilisation, so quite naturally we need a certain increase in the police force. It is a very modest one which we are suggesting and certainly does not relate to any fears of disturbances. I agree that there is no police problem in that sense.

Let me turn now from animal problems and the police to human problems, first, to the bread and butter problem. The strides which have been taken in the last ten years towards the economic development of the country have been quite considerable. Government revenue has more than trebled. Exports, which in 1948 stood at little over £16 million a year, were worth over £46 million last year. The total value of external trade last year was about £90 million of which our share was a little under 30 per cent.

I will not take up cudgels with hon. Members as to how far the improvement was due to or was slowed up by the groundnut scheme. I think that the time is past when we need go too much into detail on that. Whatever subsidiary factors may have impeded or accelerated progress, the expansion was primarily fostered by the 1952 boom in commodity prices. The rate of increase has been less spectacular since commodity prices turned down and the fall in commodity prices has inevitably affected revenues. In 1957–58, there was still a small surplus, but in the current year there will be a deficit of between £600,000 and £1 million, and there is not much in reserve to meet the rising recurrent costs of administration.

The orthodox economist's solution would, I suppose, have been to cut back on expenditure and particularly on social services, but we agree with hon. Members that at this stage in Tanganyika's development that would be wrong and unwise. Her Majesty's Government have accordingly undertaken to help Tanganyika to overcome its financial difficulties where necessary, at any rate to the extent that the Tanganyika Government can continue to plan for basic services at reasonable levels. The ways in which this can best be done are now under examination.

The Legislative Council is now debating the Budget for the year which will begin on 1st July. From the draft estimates, which the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington thought a little on the pessimistic side, it looks as though there will be a deficit of £1,790,000. That is an indication of the kind of sum over which we may have to help the Tanganyika Government if it is to be able to plan basic services at reasonable levels. However, I do not think that that deficit calls for excessive gloom, because steady progress has been made and the gross domestic product rose from £142 million in 1954 to £169 million in 1958.

Some commodity prices are rallying. Coffee and cotton are still rather uncertain, but the price of sisal, much the most important crop, has risen considerably and showns no sign of falling. While I am on the subject of sisal, I am sure that the House would wish me to pay my tribute to the late Sir Eldridge Hitchcock, who great work in the development of sisal production in Tanganyika has done so much for the economy of that country.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Crosby said, there is also a good deal of mineral wealth in the territory. At this point it is appropriate to refer to a transaction. a very important transaction from the point of view of the Tanganyika Government, which was undertaken last year in relation to Williamson Diamonds. After Dr. Williamson's death, the Tanganyika Government went half shares with de Beers in taking over Williamson Diamonds. An agreement was reached with de Beers which we and the Tanganyika Government regard as entirely satisfactory. Tanganyika has half the shares with four directors on the board, one of whom, incidentally, is Mr. David Mkwaia, who was a member of the Royal Commission on Lands and Population in East Africa and who is, of course, an African.

I think that our confidence in Tanganyika's economic future is soundly based. As hon. Members have said, the problem is how to make the best of the resources of the territory. The World Bank has agreed to send a mission to make a general economic survey and to help in the preparation of a development programme. This mission will not make detailed studies of particular technological problems, nor of specific projects, but it will examine present economic trends and assess the resources available for future development. It will begin work this week. It is expected to stay in Tanganyika until the end of August. Meanwhile, until we have its report—I hope that this will not be thought evasive—I would rather not anticipate its findings with regard to sugar and oil or, indeed, with regard to the extension of the railway line.

There we have, if I may call it that, the economic foundation upon which political progress has to be based. It is, after all, on the economic foundation alone that progress can be made politically. The main task before us is how to increase the association of the people of Tanganyika with the direction of their national life. In some ways, this can be done, perhaps most effectively, directly, and here I join with the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Member for Llanelly in attaching great importance to the development of the co-operative movement. The co-operative movement is making steady progress. The figures are actually better than those the hon. Gentleman gave. At the present time, there are not 470 societies registered but 546, with a membership of 319,000 persons. Last year, 85 new societies were registered. That possibly accounts for the difference between his figures and mine.

Most of the societies are, of course, marketing organisations, there are also five credit societies, six consumer co-operatives and one building society. The value of produce marketed during 1958 by the co-operatives amounted to nearly £11 million. By far the most important crop was coffee in this case. A coffee curing works has been built during the year by the Bukoba Native Co-operative Union. It is rather interesting to note that, since then, the Bukoba Co-operative Union has concluded an agreement with the Tanganyika Government to supply electricity to the Bukoba township from the power station at the Co-operative Union's works.

The hon. Gentleman made an interesting suggestion about the need for a union, a holding organisation, as it were, for all these co-operatives. I must confess that I have not, in the time available to me today, been able to look into the matter. I am grateful for the suggestion. I have no doubt it has been studied in the Department since he has made it before, but I should like to acquaint myself fully on the pros and cons in regard to it.

I suppose that almost more important still is the bringing forward of local people to fill higher posts in Government, commerce and industry. Here, one is torn in two directions. In the climate of Africa, one has to move fast, but, on the other hand, if one lowers one's standards, one may wreck all one's work. Out of 27,962 Government officers—I apologise for all these statistics, but they are necessary to give the facts—24,606 are already locally domiciled. That is over the whole range of the administration. What is interesting is the progress made in the staff list of senior appointments. In 1954, there were five Africans holding senior appointments. Today there are 181. This is still by no means the majority, but it is a sign of the progress which is being made.

The main bases from which we are operating for progress on the training front are the Government bursary scheme and the help we receive from Makerere College, from the Royal Technical College at Nairobi, and from the Technical Institute at Dar-es-Salaam. There is also a number of courses on the cooperative movement, local government, labour administration, community development, housing, public health, nursing and things of that kind. Over 2,000 officers have attended courses such as these during the last year, and we expect very nearly 3,000 to attend similar courses this year. Colonial Development and Welfare Funds have contributed to setting up two trade schools. I noted what my hon. Friend said about the importance of European education, and I shall certainly look into the advice he gave in his speech.

I come now to what one might call the top structure, the superstructure, of political and constitutional affairs. As the House knows, in February of this year, thirty representative members of the Legislative Council were elected. It was the first time that they had been elected. They had been nominated before. This resulted, as we know, in an overwhelming victory for the T.A.N.U. and those supported by it. The elections were orderly and the scene has been set for a fresh advance.

In the Legislative Council on 17th March the Governor announced the creation of a Council of Ministers to come into being on 1st July. To this Council there will be appointed five unofficial Ministers. Mr. Nyerere has not felt able to accept a portfolio. I regret this, but I understand it completely. He has, however, been able to ensure that two of the three African Ministers belong to his party and that the remaining Ministers are persons elected with T.A.N.U. support. The Governor also announced, as my right hon. Friend told the House on 26th March, the terms of reference of a Committee to investigate a number of constitutional matters. The hon. Member pleaded here for universal adult suffrage as against a qualified franchise, but we are just at the beginning of the constitutional development of Tanganyika. These were the first elections. We are not dealing with a simple matter. I do not know how things would have turned out in this country had we gone straight to a universal franchise 100 or 200 years ago, but it seems to me that this is one of the matters which this Committee can and should look into.

The Committee will consider the composition of the representative side of the Legislative Council, the constituencies, the voting system and the qualifications for candidates and voters. It is called, not very attractively, the Post Elections Committee, and it starts work this week under the chairmanship of Sir Richard Ramage, who, as the right hon. Gentleman will know, had a very distinguished Colonial Service career and was later Chairman of the Uganda Public Service Commission. There are thirteen other members, eight elected and five nominated.

In the political and constitutional field Tanganyika is clearly entering a decisive phase in its development. The Governor has undertaken to consider with his advisers and with the Secretary of State and us here in London the question of further advances in the main constitutional field during the time that the Post Elections Committee is conducting its inquiries. He has expressed the hope that it will be possible to make an announcement on the next moves forward, when final decisions on the Post Elections Committee's recommendations are made public.

Here, much will depend on how the newly appointed unofficial Ministers and their elected colleagues face the extremely difficult problems which confront Tanganyika. Above all, they have to find means by which the rapid political development of the territory can be matched by the development of its economic and human resources. The danger is that the one may outstrip the other. I am sure that all hon. Members will join me in wishing them well in the new tasks and responsibilities which they are undertaking. They can rely on a loyal and efficient Civil Service in discharging them, and I hope that mutual respect and tolerance will continue to govern the relationships between the races both in this and in other fields as they have throughout the evolution of Tanganyika.

The hon. Gentleman spoke of the need for confidence in the African leadership in Tanganyika. Certainly we in the Colonial Office have faith and confidence that things are moving along the right lines.

Looking ahead to the longer term, I think that I ought, in fairness to the Governor, to quote what Sir Richard Turnbull said in the Legislative Council in October, 1958. I was not sure whether the hon. Gentleman fully understood what he said. These were his words: In terms of population the Africans are and always will be an overwhelming majority in Tanganyika and, as the country progresses, it is right and proper, as indeed it is natural and inevitable, that African participation both in the legislature and in the executive should steadily increase. It is not intended, and never has been intended, that parity should be a permanent feature of the Tanganyika scene. On the other hand it is intended, and always has been intended, that the fact that when self-government is eventually attained both the legislature and the government are likely to be predominantly African should in no way affect the security of the rights and interests of those minority communities who have made their homes in Tanganyika. I do not think that that stresses the balance wrongly. It expresses both our determination to see that all communities, minorities as well as majorities, should have fair play and our confidence in the ability of the Africans to develop to the point where they will be leading the destinies of Tanganyika themselves.

Question put and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at twenty-five minutes past Ten o'clock.