HC Deb 02 June 1959 vol 606 cc133-6

[Queen's Recommendation signified.]

Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees).

[Sir GORDON TOUCHE in the Chair]

Motion made, and Question proposed, That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide for increases of certain pensions, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament—

  1. A. Of any expenditure by way of—
    1. (a) payments in respect of a pension payable by a Government department; or
    2. (b) any increase in the sums payable tinder any other enactment out of moneys so provided,
    which is attributable to any provision of the said Act of the present Session providing for an increase of a pension, being an increase—
    1. (i) determined in accordance with the provisions of that Act by reference to the annual rate of that pension after any increase thereof under, or by reference to increases under, the Pensions (Increase) Acts of 1920, 1924, 1944, 1947, 1952, 1954 and 1956 other than an increase under section six of the said Act of 1956; or
    2. (ii) such as to secure that, where a person who has been in receipt of a pension has completed further service by virtue of which that pension has fallen (or if that service had been terminated by retirement would have fallen) to be re-assessed, that pension and any other pension computed by reference to that pension is not less than it would have been if that further service had not been rendered;
  2. B. Of any increase in the sums payable out of moneys so provided which is attributable to any provision of the said Act of the present Session providing for the Pensions (Increase) Acts of 1920 and 1924 or of 1944 and 1947 to apply to pensions specified in Part I or Part II of the Second Schedule to the Pensions (India, Pakistan and Burma) Act, 1955, as amended;
    3. 134
  3. C. Of any increase in the sums payable under any other enactment out of moneys so provided which is attributable to any other provision of the said Act of the present Session relating to pensions payable in respect of service in the police, as a special constable, on the civil staff of the metropolitan police, or as a fireman or police fireman.

In this resolution, the expression "pension" has the same meaning as in the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1944.—[Mr. Simon.]

8.53 p.m.

Mr. Glenvil Hall (Colne Valley)

There are just two questions that I should like to put to either the Chancellor or the Financial Secretary, and I think that both can easily be answered. First, we on this side assume that in Committee it will be possible to debate Amendments to the scales. I do not ask tonight for an assurance that any change that is embodied in Amendments will be accepted, but I think that the Chancellor will agree that it is essential that we should have what I might call "elbow room", and not be "cabin'd, cribb'd, confin'd" by the Money Resolution when we reach the Committee stage. I have looked at the Money Resolution, and I think that the answer to my query is that there will be an allowance for discussion, even of the widest possible kind.

My second question is whether it will also be possible to discuss Clause 2 at large, and possibly make changes to it. The Financial Secretary has just said that the Chancellor and he will, between now and the Committee stage, consider the proposal, for example, put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton). As I read the Money Resolution relating to Clause 2, I am not sure whether it would be possible to make any changes, but doubtless the right hon. Gentleman or the Financial Secretary will be able to tell us.

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. J. E. S. Simon)

I can answer the first question very easily. The Money Resolution, in accordance with precedent, has been drawn widely enough to permit a discussion and to permit Amendments proposing an increase in the scales laid down in Clause 1. As the right hon. Gentleman surmised, in saying that I am not thereby committing my right hon. Friend to accept any possible Amendment that may be put forward.

As to the second question, I am very doubtful. It depends on the form of the Amendment that is put forward. As I ventured to point out, Clause 2 is a relieving Clause. The suggestion that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Sowerby made was related to a method of calculating the basic pension rather than to any question of a pension increase, so I should not like to give an assurance that any such Amendment would necessarily be in order. We tried to see that the Money Resolution was drawn widely enough to permit a wide discussion on the matter raised in the Bill. It does, I think, go a bit beyond it.

Mr. Glenvil Hall

I was sorry to hear what the Financial Secretary has said. It is, however, what I expected him to say with regard to the reference in the Money Resolution to Clause 2. I have read it very closely more than once, and my own view conforms with what the Financial Secretary has now said.

We have had, and I take it that the Treasury has had, and it is quite obvious that hon. Members opposite have had a number of letters from people who feel aggrieved at this provision. I know that it is a provision which is supposed to be for their benefit but none of them appears to think so. They quote figures which show that they are apparently losing as the result of the provision which was made in the 1956 Act and is now reenacted in this Bill. I think that the trouble goes further back, probably to the Superannuation Act, 1834.

I do not know what we can do short of asking the Government to take back the Money Resolution, which I do not suppose for a moment they want to do. It would be useful if, in Committee, we could ventilate this matter, if only to put at rest some of the criticism and bitterness which it has raised among so many people.

Mr. Simon

I do not doubt that we shall be able to have a discussion which will put at rest the quite genuine misapprehensions which have arisen. The fact remains that this is a relieving provision, and I do not doubt that with co-operation across the Committee we shall be able to satisfy all those who take an interest in it that this is a relieving provision. In so far as the right hon. Gentleman may be right when lie says that there may be some trouble arising from the Superannuation Acts themselves, this is not a Bill to amend the Superannuation Acts, and I think, therefore, that I must ask the Committee to approve the Money Resolution in its present form.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported.

Report to be received Tomorrow.

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