HC Deb 29 April 1959 vol 604 cc1399-409

9.45 p.m.

Mr. T. Fraser

I beg to move, in page 10, line 32, after "Act", to insert: and take or wilfully kill two or more deer and use a vehicle to transport the carcases. An effort is made in Clause 24 to define a gang. We understood when this Bill was first introduced that it was very necessary to have this Clause because there had been a tremendous amount of gang poaching in Scotland. It was commonly believed, following the report of the Scott Henderson Committee some years ago, that in Scotland there was a widespread practice of gangs of people going out at night with motor cars, vans or lorries armed with Sten guns or automatic weapons, spraying bullets into large herds of deer by the roadside, and therefore it was necessary to have new legislation dealing with this problem.

This picture would seem to have been a figment of the imagination of the Scott Henderson Committee in the first place. Hon. Members opposite appear to be shaking their heads, but I am bound to say that in another place, when the Second Reading was being moved by Lord Forbes, the Minister of State for Scotland, he said that these gangs were working …sometimes with Sten guns or other such weapons."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords, 18th November, 1958; Vol. 212, c. 565.] Since then I have been seeking to ascertain from the Ministers whether there is evidence of Sten guns and other automatic weapons being used in Scotland, and they have had to reply that they have no evidence of Sten guns or other automatic weapons having been used for the purposes of poaching. These were the people that we were going to get at under the Bill, but as they no longer exist, the Lord Advocate has just moved an Amendment to take out Clause 23 (3, b).

Under Clause 24, which defines a gang, if the fictional John Macnab went out with a tinker's boy whom he befriended and took a deer, instead of being guilty of an offence under Clause 22 of the Bill, and liable to the penalties under it for ordinary poaching, he would become liable to the heavier penalties under Clause 24. I invite hon. Members to look at the kind of penalties. In paragraph (b) he would be subject on conviction, on indictment, to a fine not exceeding five hundred pounds or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or to both such fine and imprisonment. This is the kind of imprisonment that can be imposed on John Macnab if he gets out in company with the tinker's boy to take a deer. It is in those circumstances, and because we are anxious to get at the gangs who go out with motor cars and take a number of deer in the middle of the night and cause great cruelty, that we think heavier penalties should be imposed. So we seek to limit Clause 24 to those persons and say that if two or more persons commit an offence under Clause 22 and take or willfully kill two or more deer, using a vehicle to transport the carcases, it would be proper to regard them as a gang and to impose heavier penalties.

If John Macnab and the tinker's boy were to take two deer and use the tinker's cart to transport the deer, they would still be dealt with under Clause 24 if this Amendment were accepted, but it is reasonable to suppose that people who poach and commit a wrong should he liable to some penalties. We would be satisfied with the penalties written into Clause 22 as the Bill is drawn and we would only want the heavier penalties set out in Clause 24 to alight upon the commercial poacher, who is guilty of causing great cruelty to deer.

The John Macnabs were never cruel to deer. They did not wound them, and they still do not wound them. The traditional poacher is the best shot in the Highlands. Therefore, we do not want to get the traditional poacher under Clause 24. We want to catch the new type poacher who goes out in the company of two or three other people, who uses not Sten guns and other automatic weapons but ordinary shot guns, firing them into a herd of deer, taking 6, 10 or 12 and sending as many more back into the deer forest maimed, perhaps to suffer great pain and to die some two or three miles away.

We want to get at those people and punish them by the heavier penalties under Clause 24. It would be a tragedy however, if the heavier penalties intended for those people were to alight on the crofter and his son or the farmer and his son who are found guilty of an offence under Clause 22 of the Bill because they had acted together. Therefore, I hope that the saving provision of this Amendment, namely, that the gang will be composed of two or more persons acting together and taking or wilfully killing two or more deer, using a vehicle for transporting the carcases, will be accepted, because without it Clause 24 would be far too objectionable for any reasonable person to accept.

Mr. Woodburn

I beg to second the Amendment.

Lord John Hope

This point was one on which we had one of the most thorough debates during the long journey of the Committee stage, and I was extremely grateful to both sides of the Committee for the constructive and extremely interesting suggestions that were made.

Mr. Willis

Nothing has been done about that.

Lord John Hope

Let the hon. Gentleman bide his time.

We wanted very much—I think the Committee knew that I was very anxious about it—to find a way in which we could get into the net the commercial gangs which both sides of the House want to punish severely without even risking getting into the net someone who was not intended to be brought in. It seemed that the most promising line of approach was the common factor of the vehicle on the ground that gangs never operate without one. The Opposition have coupled with that the possession of carcases.

There are, unfortunately, about both these qualifications loopholes which would certainly be found by the gang poachers. It would not be very difficult for a gang to hide the carcases and then return and remove them one by one. There is no doubt that it would be perfectly possible for a gang which had arrived in a vehicle to conceal it at some little distance from the scene of operations, and then if offenders were caught without the vehicle they could not be charged under Clause 24.

Another possibility which arose in one's mind in this connection is that if we had the vehicle provision it is very probable that gangs would take to cutting up the carcases on the spot and going off down the glen with a couple of haunches each slung across their shoulders. That would not be at all difficult to do. Therefore, there was no constructive approach left which would fill the gap and also make it a cast-iron certainty that no one could ever be prosecuted under Clause 24 who ought not to be.

There are two further things that I wish to say. First, hon. Members will recollect that the penalties here are maxima. In this debate my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate will tell the House the instructions that he intends to give so that what we all want will be accomplished in terms of carrying out Clause 24. As to the merits of the Amendment itself, hon. Members who were on the Standing Committee will realise that I tried very hard to find a way out of the difficulty, and I have tried very hard since, but I am satisfied beyond any doubt that there is no way round the problem which would give perfection.

Mr. T. Fraser

There must be many hon. Members in all parts of the House who are very disappointed at the Joint Under-Secretary's speech. The hon. Gentleman said that he is prepared to have the net so close that no possible person who is a gang poacher will escape and that he will willingly take the risk of capturing some innocents in his net, persons who were never intended to be caught by the heavy penalties in Clause 24.

The Joint Under-Secretary knows as well as the Lord Advocate does that there is no instruction that the right hon. and learned Gentleman could send to procurators or anybody else in Scotland which would determine the decisions the courts will reach in 1965 or at any time in the future. The courts will look at the Act and will see that where two or more persons acting together take a deer—which nobody owns—they will render themselves liable to penalties of £500 and a period of imprisonment up to a maximum of two years. If the Government cannot do better than they have done the House ought in common sense and decency to vote against them.

The Lord Advocate

I agree that the penalties in the Clause are high. They were described in very strong terms by the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser) and the House was asked to picture the case of John Macnab going out on the hill. Some eight years ago the House might have been asked to imagine the case of John Macnab and somebody else going out to poach salmon. The same penalties were then imposed for similar circumstances. One wonders how the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries (Protection) (Scotland) Act, 1951, was ever passed. Some bad things have been said about it, and apparently everybody dislikes it. However, my experience is that that Act, with possibly one isolated exception, has worked extremely well. We took the penalty Clause for the gang poaching of salmon and made it applicable to gang poaching of deer.

10.0 p.m.

My noble Friend said that I would indicate how I proposed to deal with the matter if the Clause went through in its present form. I agree with the hon. Member for Hamilton that it is for the court to decide. On the other hand, the court is not able to deal with an accused person until that person is brought before it. After the salmon poaching Measure was passed in 1951 an instruction was sent out from the Crown Office giving certain advice to Procurators-Fiscal. The House will remember that an indictment runs in the name of the Lord Advocate of the time, and the authority of Crown counsel has to be taken before proceedings are started on indictment.

Because of the misgivings expressed in Committee and again today, and the fear that the Clause could be used against the crofter and his son out on a hill, on unenclosed land, I propose to follow the precedent set in 1951. The Government have said consistently, from the Second Reading stage through the Committee stage and again today, that the Clause is intended to deal only with poaching by the commercial type of person. Since the Committee stage my noble Friend has struggled to see whether a way could be found of defining this commercial type of poacher but, as he said, it has been quite impossible to find a suitable form of words.

The best that I can do to reassure the House is that I will undertake to inform the Procurators-Fiscal of the fact that the Clause is intended to be used against the commercial type of poacher and not John Macnab out on the hill. I can assure the House that if I give an instruction similar to that which was given in 1951 there will be no danger of the Clause operating against the wrong type of person.

Mr. Malcolm MacMillan

The Lord Advocate was not up to his usual stanlard—[HON. MEMBERS: "He was."] Perhaps he was, but I think he was not—in taking the salmon poaching Act as a comparison. His argument went very far afield. We know that it is a reserve argument which the noble Lord and his colleagues have avoided using too much because they are conscious of its weaknesses.

I am no apologist for the salmon poaching Act. When it went through the House I made it clear that I thought it was a thoroughly bad Measure, and that we were wasting Parliament's time in putting it through instead of far more important legislation—just as we are wasting the time of Parliament tonight, putting through a far worse piece of legislation when we have any amount of unemployment and other vital problems to deal with. This is trifling with the time of Parliament.

To give this Measure priority, and to have spent 15 or 16 sittings in the Scottish Standing Committee on it, is an impertinence when our people are hunting for jobs all over the country, and when so many other and more vital matters require to be tackled by legislation which the Government have not the guts to introduce. People are "fed up" with deer and everything connected with them.

The Lord Advocate drew an analogy between this Bill and the salmon poaching Act. I wish that he had been a little more logical. We expect it of a Member who holds his office. The purpose of the salmon poaching Act, which he says has been effective, was to prevent the further depletion of already heavily depleted stocks of salmon. That is not the purpose of the Bill, in respect of deer. The whole reason for the Bill is that the countryside in the north is overwhelmed with this pest, which is preying upon agriculture and is an absolute nuisance to farmers and crofters.

In the case of the salmon poaching Act we were justifiably afraid that our salmon stocks would be depleted. It was profitable for gangs to go out with explosives and to blow up rich pools, or to use cyanide, so causing further depletion. There was a real danger of salmon stocks being reduced to next to nothing, and the quality being greatly reduced. That is not the position with red deer. They have been multiplying, colonising, marauding and preying upon crops and winter keep. This has prevented us from putting more beef on the hills in the north-west of Scotland. The Lord Advocate should not have used that analogy, and I am surprised that he did. But he has made a concession. He will tell the Procurator-Fiscal, "Do not have John Macnab. Wait until you can prove that he is a commercial gangster." But if two John Macnabs go out, by the definition in this Bill the are commercial gangsters so far as the law is concerned.

The courts will not look at what is said tonight in this Chamber or pay regard to the suggestion of the Lord Advocate—this little off-the-cuff, benevolent concession by the right hon. and learned Gentleman—to the Procurator-Fiscal. The courts will look at the Bill and try to interpret the intention of Parliament in their own way. The Lord Advocate said that the 1951 Act relating to salmon has been effective. It is just as effective against the John Macnabs as against the commercial gangs, and that is one of the complaints which I have against it. The Bill will he more ferociously effective against John Macnab if he takes his son with him when he goes out on the hill, and thus, for the purposes of the Bill, they become a gang of commercial poachers.

There is nothing in the Bill to instruct the Procurator-Fiscal not to proceed against the poacher who takes his son with him, as every poacher does in the Highlands. That kind of thing is traditional and has been going on for generations. No one has spoken against it, not even the landlords who introduced this Bill in another place and have supported it in its passage through this House. They have ignored the ordinary, decent traditional poacher taking something from his native hill for the family pot. That kind of thing is recognised as being traditional.

Now, the most reactionary body of people who ever sat on the Government Front Bench have produced the worst Bill which has ever been produced—a rag of a Bill. And we have this nice, genial, well-intentioned suggestion on the part of the Lord Advocate to the Procurator-Fiscal, "Do not hurt John Macnab. Do not bully him. Do not put him in gaol or fine him hundreds of pounds—unless he brings his son out with him when he goes to get a deer carcase in the traditional way." What a concession!

Question put, That those words be there inserted in the Bill:—

The House divided: Ayes 118, Noes 161.

Division No. 95.] AYES [8.58 p.m.
Ainsley, J. W Diamond, John Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Allaun, Frank (Salsford, E.) Dodds, N. N. Hunter, A. E.
Awbery, S. S. Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. Hynd, H. (Accrington)
Bacon, Miss Alice Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) Irving, Sydney (Dartford)
Beswick, Frank Fitch, A. E. (Wigan) Janner, B.
Blackburn, F. Fletcher, Eric Johnson, James (Rugby)
Blenkinsop, A Forman, J. C. Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)
Blyton, W. R. Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) Jones, David (The Hartlepools)
Bonham Carter, Mark Gooch, E. G. Jones, Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)
Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.) Grey, C. F. Jones, Jack (Rotherham)
Bowles, F. G. Griffiths, William (Exchange) Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)
Brown, Thomas (Ince) Grimond, J. King, Dr. H. M.
Burke, W. A. Hale, Leslie Lawson, G. M,
Burton, Miss F. E. Hamilton, W. W. Ledger, R. J.
Carmichael, J. Hannan, W. Lee, Frederick (Newton)
Castle, Mrs. B. A. Hayman, F. H. Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)
Champion, A. J. Herbison, Miss M. Lindgren, G. S.
Chetwynd, G. R. Hewitson, Capt. M. Logan, D. G.
Cliffe, Michael Hilton, A. V. Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead) Holmes, Horace McAlister, Mrs. Mary
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Holt, A. F. McCann, J.
Cronin, J. D. Howell, Charles (Perry Ban, Mclnnes, J.
Crossman, R. H. S. Howell, Denis (All Saints) McKay, John (Wallsend)
Davies, Stephen (Merthyr) Hoy, J. H. McLeavy, Frank
Deer, G. Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)
da Freitas, Geoffrey Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) MacPhereon, Malcolm (Stirling)
Mahon, Simon Redhead, E. C. Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)
Mallalleu, E. L. (Brigg) Reeves, J. Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)
Mann, Mrs. Jean Reynolds, G. W. Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)
Mason, Roy Rhodes, H. Timmons, J.
Mitchison, G. R. Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Viant, S. P.
Moody, A. S. Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon) Wade, D. W.
Mort, D. L. Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.) Watkins, T. E.
Moss, R. Ross, William White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)
Moyle, A. Short, E. W. Wilkins, W. A.
Neal, Harold (Bolsover) Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) Willey, Frederick
Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon) Skeffington, A. M. Williams, David (Neath)
Oswald, T. Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.) Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Ab'tillery)
Padley, W. E. Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.) Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)
Palmer, A. M. F. Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank Williams, W, R. (Openshaw)
Parker, J. Sparks, J. A. Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)
Paton, John Spriggs, Leslie Winter-bottom, Richard
Pentland, N. Stewart, Michael (Fulham) Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.
Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) Stonehouse, John Woof, R. E.
Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.) Stones, W. (Consett)
Pursey, Cmdr. H. Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Rankin, John Sylvester, G. O. Mr. Pearson and Mr. Simmons.
Alport, C. J. M. Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R, G. Noble, Michael (Argyll)
Amery, Julian (Preston, N.) Gurden, Harold O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)
Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton) Hall, John (Wycombe) Osborne, C.
Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) Page, R. G.
Armstrong, C. W. Harris, Reader (Heston) Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)
Atkins, H. E. Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) Partridge, E.
Baldwin, Sir Archer Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel Peel, W. J.
Barber, Anthony Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G. Peyton, J. W. W.
Barter, John Henderson-Stewart, Sir James Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth
Batsford, Brian Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W. Pike, Miss Mervyn
Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.) Hill, John (S. Norfolk) Pilkington, Capt. R. A.
Bennett, F. M. (Torquay) Holland-Martin, C. J. Pitt, Miss E. M.
Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) Hope, Lord John Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.
Bidgood, J. C. Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P. Ramsden, J. E.
Biggs-Davison, J. A. Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire) Rawlinson, Peter
Bingham, R. M. Howard, Hon. Grevllle (St. Ives) Redmayne, M.
Bishop, F. P. Howard, John (Test) Roper, Sir Harold
Black, Sir Cyril Hughes-Young, M. H. C. Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard
Body, R. F. Hulbert, Sir Norman Russell, R. S.
Braine, B. R. Hurd, Sir Anthony Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.
Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.) Hutchison, Michael Clark(E'b'gh, S.) Sharples, R. C.
Brewis, John Hylton. Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry Shepherd, William
Burden, F. F. A. Iremonger, T. L. Smithers, Peter (Winchester)
Clarke, Brig. Terence(Portsmth, W.) Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) Spearman, Sir Alexander
Cole, Norman Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) Speir, R. M.
Conant, Maj. Sir Roger Jennings, J. C. (Burton) Spence, H. R. (Aberdeen, W.)
Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K. Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle) Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir p. (Kens'gt'n, S.)
Corfield, F. V. Johnson, Eric (Blackley) Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm
Courtney, Cdr. Anthony Jones, Rt. Hon. Aubrey (Hall Green) Storey, S.
Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) Kerr, Sir Hamilton Studholme, Sir Henry
Currie, G. B. H. Lancaster, Col. C. G. Summers, Sir Spenoer
Davidson, Viscountess Langford-Holt, J. A. Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)
Deedes, W. F. Leburn, W. G. Teeling, W.
de Ferranti, Basil Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield) Temple, John M.
Dodds-Parker, A. D. Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.) Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)
Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E, McA. Linstead, Sir H. N. Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)
du Cann, E. D, L. Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.) Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)
Duncan, Sir James Longden, Gilbert Thompson, R. (Croydon, S.)
Elliott, R.w. (Ne'castle upon Tyne,N.) Loveys, Walter H. Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin
Farcy-Jones. F. W. Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.) Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)
Finlay, Graeme Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Tilney, John (Wavertree)
Fisher, Nigel Macdonald, Sir Peter Turner, H. F. L.
Gammens, Lady McLaughlin, Mrs. P. Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.
Garner-Evans, E. H. Maclay, Rt. Hon. John Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)
George, J. C. (Pollok) Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.) Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)
Gibson-Watt, D. MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty) Wall, Patrick
Glover, D. McMaster, S. R. Ward, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Worcester)
Glyn, Col. Richard H. Maddan, Martin Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)
Goodhart, Philip Maltland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle) Webster, David
Gough, C. F. H. Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R. Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)
Gower, H. R. Markham, Major Sir Frank Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)
Graham, Sir Fergus Mawby, R. L. Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Grant, Rt. Hon. W. (Woodside) Medlicott, Sir Frank Woollam, John Victor
Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich) Millligan, Rt. Hon. W. R. Yates, William (The Wrekin)
Green, A. Nairn, D. L. S.
Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans) Nicholson, Sir Godfrey (Farnham) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury) Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E, & Chr'ch) Mr. Bryan and Mr. Whitelaw
Division No. 96.] AYES [10.14 p.m.
Ainsley, J. W. Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) Pentland, N.
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)
Awbery, S. S. Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Rankin, John
Bacon, Miss Alice Hunter, A. E. Redhead, E. C.
Beswick, Frank Hynd, H. (Accrington) Reynolds, G. W.
Blackburn, F. Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) Rhodes, H.
Blenkinsop, A. Irving, Sydney (Dartford) Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Blyton, W. R. Janner, B. Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)
Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.) Johnson, James (Rugby) Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)
Brown, Thomas (Ince) Johnston, Douglas (Paisley) Ross, William
Burke, W. A. Jones, David (The Hartlepools) Short, E. W.
Carmichael, J. Jones, Elwyn (W. Ham, S.) Skeffington, A. M.
Castle, Mrs. B. A. Jones, Jack (Rotherham) Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)
Champion, A. J. Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)
Cliffe, Michael King, Dr. H. M. Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Lawson, G. M, Sparks, J. A.
Crossman, R. H. S. Ledger, R. J. Spriggs, Leslie
Davies, Stephen (Merthyr) Lee, Frederick (Newton) Stewart, Michael (Fulham)
Deer, G. Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock) Stonehouse, John
de Freitas, Geoffrey Lindgren, G. S. Stones, W. (Consett)
Diamond, John Logan, D. G. Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.
Dodds, N. N. Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Sylvester, G. O.
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. McAlister, Mrs. Mary Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)
Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) McCann, J. Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda W.)
Fitch, A. E. (Wigan) Mclnnes, J. Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)
Fletcher, Eric McKay, John (Wallsend) Timmons, J.
Forman, J. C. MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles) Watkins T E.
Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) White Henry (Derbyshire N.E.)
Grey, C. F. Mahon, Simon Wilkins, W. A.
Griffiths, William (Exchange) Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Willey, Frederick
Hale, Leslie Mann, Mrs. Jean Williams, David (Neath)
Hamilton, W. W. Mason, Roy Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Ab'tillery)
Hannan, W. Mitchison.G.R Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)
Hayman, F. H. Moody, A. S. Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)
Herbison, Miss M. Moss, R. Winterbottom, Richard
Hilton, A. V. Moyle, A. Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.
Holmes, Horace Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon) Woof, R. E.
Howell, Charles (Perry Barr) Oswald, T.
Howell, Denis (All Saints) Palmer, A. M. F. TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Hoy, J. H. Parker, J. Mr. Pearson and Mr. Simmons
Alport, C. J. M. Duncan, Sir James Iremonger, T. L.
Amery, Julian (Preston, N.) Elliott, R.W.(Ne'castieupon Tyne, N.) Hutchison, Michael Clark(E'b'gh, S.)
Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William Farey-Jones, F. W. Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry
Armstrong, C. W. Finlay, Graeme Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)
Atkins, H. E. Fisher, Nigel Jennings, J. C. (Burton)
Baldwin, Sir Archer Gammans, Lady Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)
Barber, Anthony Garner-Evans, E. H. Johnson, Eric (Blackley)
Barter, John George, J. C. (Pollok) Jones, Rt. Hon. Aubrey (Hall Green)
Batsford, Brian Gibson- Watt, D. Kerr, Sir Hamilton
Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.) Glover, D. Langford-Holt, J. A.
Bennett, F. M. (Torquay) Glyn, Col. Richard H. Leburn, W. G.
Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) Godber, J. B. Legh, Hon Peter (Petersfield)
Bidgood, J. C. Goodhart, Philip Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)
Biggs-Davison, J. A. Gower, H. R. Linstead, Sir H. N.
Bingham, R. M. Graham, Sir Fergus Lioyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)
Bishop, F. P. Grant, Rt. Hon. W. (Woodside) Longden, Gilbert
Black, Sir Cyril Grant-Ferris, Wg. Cdr. R.(Nantwich) Loveys, Walter H.
Body, R. F. Green, A. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh
Bonham-Carter, Mark Grimond, J. Macdonald, Sir Peter
Braine, B. R. Grimston, Hon. John(St. Albans) McLaughlln, Mrs. P.
Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow. W.) Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury) Maclay, Rt. Hon. John
Brewis, John Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G. Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)
Brooman- White R. C. Gurden, Harold MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)
Bryan, P. McMaster, S. R.
Burden, F. F. A. Hall, John (Wycombe) Maddan, Martin
Chichester-Clark, R. Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)
Cole, Norman Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.
Conant, Maj. Sir Roger Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G. Markham, Major Sir Frank
Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K. Henderson-Stewart, Sir James Mawby, R. L.
Corfield, F. V. Hill, John (S. Norfolk) Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.
Courtney, Cdr. Anthony Holland-Martin, C. J. Nairn, D. L, S.
Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) Holt, A. F. Nicholson, Sir Godfrey (Farnham)
Currie, G. B. H. Hope, Lord John Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch)
Davidson, Viscountess Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P. Noble, Michael (Argyll)
Deedes, W. F. Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire) O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)
de Ferranti, Basil Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives) Osborne, C.
Dodds-Parker, A. D. Hughes-Young, M. H. C. Page, R. G.
Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA. Hulbert, Sir Norman Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)
du Cann, E. D. L. Hurd, Sir Anthony Partridge, E.
Peel, W. J. Spearman, Sir Alexander Turner, H. F. L.
Peyton, J. W. W. Speir, R. M. Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.
Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth Spence, H. R. (Aberdeen, W.) Wade, D. W.
Pike, Miss Mervyn Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)
Pilkirigton, Capt. R. A. Storey, S, Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)
Pitt, Miss E. M. Studholme, Sir Henry Wall, Patrick
Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L. Summers, Sir Spencer Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)
Ramsden, J. E. Taylor, William (Bradford, N.) Webster, David
Rawlinson, Peter Teeling, W. Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)
Redmayne, M. Temple, John M. Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)
Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.) Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway) Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Roper, Sir Harold Thompson, Kenneth (Walton) Woollam, John Victor
Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard Thompson, R. (Croydon, S.) Yates, William, (The Wrekin)
Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R. Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin
Sharples, R. C. Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Smithers, Peter (Winchester) Tilney, John (Wavertree) Colonel J. H. Harrison and
Mr. Whitelaw.