HC Deb 19 November 1958 vol 595 cc1277-88

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Colonel J. H. Harrison.]

10.20 p.m.

Mr. Will Owen (Morpeth)

The Minister has some knowledge of the lamentable deterioration in rural transport, but I hope that tonight we shall hear something more than pious sympathy from him. I hope we shall hear that an attempt is to be made to meet the challenge presented by the decline in the rural communities in Britain.

My constituency and mid-Northumberland in general is affected by this problem as are other rural areas of Britain. Concern has been expressed by the Northumberland County Council, the County Councils' Association, the Country Landowners' Association, the Morpeth Rural District Council, the local parish councils, the Northumberland Rural Community Council, and by the Presbyterian Church in Middleton, in the County of Northumberland. All these organisations have made representations to the Minister about the gravity of the problem and have endeavoured to promote Government action to relieve the tragedy.

The Northumberland Rural Community Council has been engaged for about eight years in compiling valuable social research and its findings have been submitted to the Minister in an endeavour to solicit his interest and initiate some form of Government action. To argue that we have not accumulated sufficient evidence to justify Government action is to ignore the realism of the social and economic change which is sweeping rural Britain. From 1950 the position in East and mid-Northumberland has continued to deteriorate. There is a population of over 16,000 people in that area where the economy is based mainly on agriculture. There is a little quarrying and gravel working and the area is touched by the fringe of the coal mining industry. Its transport problem is similar to that of other areas and involves the carrying of irregular traffic from small and scattered settlements to markets and urban centres.

From 1951 there were passenger train services from Morpeth to Scots Gap, from Hexham to Bellingham and on to Scotland. These services have now been withdrawn. The railway lines are still there, but Government policy is so wrapped up in the creed of profitability that they refuse to recognise their responsibility to provide a public service. When the train services were withdrawn, a strong delegation complained to the Minister, but no action was taken. At that time there existed more or less adequate bus services. In some respects they were subsidised by the British Transport Commission, but now many of these services have ceased to operate.

A population scattered over a wide geographical area makes rural transport, whether by rail or bus, uneconomic in terms of profitability. Are we, then, to stand by and see these rural areas die a lingering death? At present, 12 operators run limited stage services at a loss. Evidence provided by the Rural Community Council reveals that about 29 per cent. of the passengers use the services on three or four days each week.

One-third of the passengers own cars and those without cars manage to get lifts. Eighty-six per cent. of the members of women's voluntary organisations use the buses. Less than half the women who have cars in the family do not own driving licences. But this changing pattern in social life must not tempt us to ignore our public responsibility to a fairly large immobile section of the rural community.

The agricultural industry in this area makes a real contribution to the economy of Britain. Yet the Minister of Agriculture will say that the poor bus services in the area directly affect the supply of farm labour. Between 1950 and 1956 regular farmworkers in Northumberland fell by 6 per cent. and casual labour by 18 per cent. Where the bus services have been withdrawn the number of regular workers fell by 15 per cent. and casual workers by 59 per cent.

The farmers in the area complain that even the inducement of a modern cottage fails to secure the services of farmworkers owing to the general absence of transport. Young people in the area have no real choice of employment. Work available in Morpeth and Hexham is im- possible without an effective bus service. Elderly men and women, sick and disabled persons are seriously handicapped. The medical officer of health for the area is having to provide special cars for hospital services. The programme of poliomyelitis immunisation was extremely costly because special transport had to be hired.

Social life is dying because of the difficulties of attending churches, community centres, entertainments, doctors, shopping, and visiting friends, and even the development of further education is suffering. I believe that we have a moral obligation and a social responsibility to assist this forgotten section of the community.

Let it not be said that they are unwilling to help themselves. In the village of Middleton the Presbyterian Minister there, the Rev. Harold Page, convened a public meeting at the request of his parishioners to consider the suggestion that the local bus service was to be discontinued. This meeting was attended largely by all the interested people in the area. A copy of the proceedings has been sent to the Minister. At this meeting, these citizens voluntarily agreed to accept an increase in transport fares ranging from 2s. 6d. to 3s. as some evidence of their urgent desire for the continuity of a vital service to them.

Many of my constituents have written to me and to the Minister about this matter, deploring the impact of the declining transport service upon the social and economic life of their community. When we realise that the small village of Middleton is about 14 miles from Morpeth, one gets some idea of the nature of the problem that faces these people.

I know that the suggestion has been made by the Minister that this is a matter which ought to be resolved at local level. He is aware that the local bus operators are now finding it completely uneconomic to maintain this service. Any suggestion that this is a matter to be resolved by the local traffic commissioners or to be settled by means of the imposition of increased fares on rural communities is to ignore the wider, civic responsibility of running an over-all national transport service.

It has been suggested that we might consider tie possibility of a reduction in fuel tax to help particularly those who are running rural bus services. My own personal opinion is that here is an opportunity for the Government to recognise that this matter of rural transport, which not only affects my constituency but which is directly becoming the concern of the County Councils' Association, thereby reflecting some concern from many parts of rural Britain, must and can be resolved only at national level.

Whatever may be the respective party views upon it, I believe that there is here an opportunity for the strong to help the weak, for ensuring that those transport services which are making considerable profits in successful urban areas should share some of the responsibility for carrying on rural transport. I hope that the Minister, recognising the weight of the representations made to him, recognising the growing magnitude of the challenge of the problem, will be able to give the House tonight some assurance of effective Government action

10.30 p.m.

Mr. Rupert Speir (Hexham)

All those who live in rural Britain will be grateful to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Morpeth (Mr. Owen) for having raised this matter again tonight. He has painted an accurate picture of the critical situation now developing in the County of Northumberland. Of course, this subject of the dwindling public transport facilities in rural areas has been raised time and again in recent years, myself tried to raise it only last week, and I do not doubt that, had I been successful then, I should have received from my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary the same reply that we shall have tonight.

High though my regard is for my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary and for his ability, and, knowing as I do his love for the countryside, I must, nevertheless, say that I fear that we shall tonight have from him the same lame answer which we have so often heard. I really feel that this is not good enough. It is not good enough for the Government to go on stalling as they have done in recent years on this vital matter which so directly affects the happiness and prosperity of the countryside.

No one disputes the seriousness of the matter. Quite rightly, British Railways are closing down the uneconomic branch lines. They are doing so right and left. Soon, there will be very few branch lines left at all. At the same time, the buses are disappearing, and the rural communities are simply becoming isolated.

The Government must realise that some form of public transport is essential if the countryside is to have any kind of life at all. Why should the Government not now face the situation? Why should they go on stalling? Why should they not be their age and approach the problem as they ought? The rural areas, after all, are not asking for very much. They ask simply for some form of public transport. I will only add that they do mean business, and their patience is not altogether unlimited.

There are plenty of possible solutions to the problem. The hon. Member for Morpeth suggested some of them tonight. Others have been advanced in the House on other occasions. All I would say, in the few moments which remain to me, is that I believe that there are plenty of possible solutions to what is, admittedly, a difficult problem, and it is high time that the Government faced the question directly, found the right solution, and put it into operation.

10.34 p.m.

Mr. Ernest Davies (Enfield, East)

The provision of adequate transport services in the rural areas presents a complicated and difficult problem, and my hon. Friend the Member for Morpeth (Mr. Owen) has done a service in raising the issue tonight, although he, of course, is understandably concerned principally with the situation in his constituency.

My hon. Friend made one point, which I hope the Minister will answer tonight, when he spoke about a certain branch line which was closed and a bus service was instituted, that bus service being subsidised by the British Transport Commission. Now, I understand, the Transport Commission has withdrawn that subsidy and the bus service will come to an end. It seems to me that when the transport users' consultative committees consider whether a branch line shall be closed, they take into account the alternative facilities; and where the Transport Commission offers to subsidise alternative facilities that are provided that may have a considerable influence upon a committee in reaching its decision. Therefore, when a decision concerning alter- native facilities to be provided is reached on a statement which, at the time, is correct but which, later, is not correct, this is a matter which should concern the Ministry.

When I raised this matter at Question Time recently the Minister said that he would look into it. I have heard no more, and I hope that when the Joint Parliamentary Secretary replies tonight he will deal with this problem. If alternative facilities are provided there should be an undertaking that they will continue and will not be subsequently withdrawn, because branch lines cannot be reopened easily and there is no possibility or likelihood of their being reopened.

On the general question, I conclude by asking the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to ensure that his Department takes this problem of the rural transport services seriously. The deterioration which we have seen during the last few years is such that not only will my hon. Friend's constituency be deprived of transport facilities, but a great number of areas will be similarly placed and it will be very difficult for the public services to be maintained unless action and policy is instituted by the Government on behalf of those who still dwell in the rural areas.

10.37 p.m.

Mr. H. R. Spence (Aberdeenshire, West)

Time is short, but I would like to thank the hon. Member for Morpeth (Mr. Owen) for initiating this Adjournment debate and to associate those of us who come from Scotland with what he said. Something will have to be done and I hope that my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary will have in mind the views which were expressed in the House in our debate on small farms a few days ago.

It is quite clear that the present state of affairs cannot continue indefinitely. If we are to have a happy, prosperous, correct way of life in the rural areas, transport must be provided. I merely rise to associate those of us who are here from Scotland with what has been said.

10.38 p.m.

Mr. Ernest Popplewell (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, West)

We are all indebted to my hon. Friend the Member for Morpeth (Mr. Owen) for raising this interesting question. I am sure that all Members of the House who have any knowledge whatever of transport conditions, particularly in the rural areas, are seriously perturbed at what is taking place.

It is a difficult question and the remedies that we feel are necessary represent a wide divergence of opinion. As long as transport continues to be regarded in separate entities of rail, road and water, however, the present trend is inevitable. Can we expect bus proprietors to run these uneconomic services? We know that it will not happen.

My hon. Friend the Member for Morpeth and my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies) have referred to the Transport Commission. When faced with difficulties, the Commission, in its desire to try to do something, has agreed for a limited period to pour a subsidy into a local bus undertaking so that it might establish itself and give some kind of service. We know that this is not the answer. The Transport Commission cannot be expected to do it. We all know the difficulties which it faces. With the terrible deficit which it is now running into, and which it has to borrow additional cash to meet, it cannot help in this way much longer.

I urge, therefore, the Minister to get his Department—as distinct from the trine commissioners, who cannot do anything—to apply its mind particularly to the question of rural transport. Cannot his Department devise some financial arrangement, somehow, somewhere, to ensure that some kind of service is given to these isolated hamlets out in the countryside?

I know it is a difficult problem, but difficulties are made to be overcome, and provided we have the willingness we can overcome them. I do not want to disturb the harmony of this debate, and I know that the Minister has only a few minutes in which to reply to it, but I must add my plea to the Ministry to do something, in association with all the interests affected, to provide some of the service; in the way we have indicated.

10.40 p.m.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. G. R. H. Nugent)

Not only am I going to make a fresh speech tonight, to surprise my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Speir), but I also intend to make one which, I hope, at any rate in its conclusions, may give him some comfort. I regret I was not able to answer his substantive speech last week, but I am very ready to come to talk here at any time about the problems of rural transport, and, indeed, to do what I can to help resolve them. I live in a village myself, and I know just what difficulties confront people, especially the elderly, when the bus services are cut down or removed.

However, I do roundly make the point, and I make it particularly to the hon. Member for Morpeth (Mr. Owen), that there is a more cheerful side to this picture. It is that every day more people are getting their own motor cars, mopeds and motor-cycles, adding thereby to their pleasure and convenience.

Mr. Owen

That is not an answer.

Mr. Ernest Davies

Do not ride off on that one.

Mr. Nugent

I shall certainly ride that one. It is a fair point. Hon. Members have made their speeches and now they should listen to me. There is a revolution going on in the ownership of cars and motorcycles, and that is very much to be welcomed, though it is perfectly true that there is a problem which comes with it. But let us have the matter in perspective, at any rate.

I think that in that respect the Northumberland Rural Community Council's survey was of great assistance, and I certainly accept that, as the hon. Member for Morpeth told us, it gives us a most detailed analysis of just what happens in this area where there are a number of small bus services. A point which I think he made and which we should keep in mind is that the very careful analysis which was made showed that although almost every countryman and countrywoman likes to use the bus, only about 30 per cent. use it regularly, and the rest use it only occasionally, either because they have their own motor cars or one which they can regularly get a lift in. In that, of course, lies just the problem which confronts many of these companies.

I should like to take the hon. Member up on one point regarding farm labour. I have the report here which says: Taking the Survey area as a whole it is difficult to pinpoint transport as being the only factor or even the main factor causing the labour shortage. While I would not say that it has nothing to do with it, it would not be fair to put the whole responsibility upon it.

Let us just look at the problem of those who do remain in difficulties because, for one reason or another, they do not own a motor car and have no prospect of getting one. The review gives us the picture of all these small bus companies which are falling gradually into greater financial difficulties. I should like to put on record the figures of the new registrations, which show how fast they are coming. In the past ten years they have been more than doubled, from 3.4 million in 1947 to 7.4 million last year, and already, in the first nine months of this year, there are just under 750,000. New registrations are likely to be a record this year. That. Of course—

Mr. Ernest Davies

Has nothing to do with it.

Mr. Nugent

—is just the problem.

I accept that there is a problem and that it is the duty of my right hon. Friends and myself to do all we can to ameliorate this difficulty, but I do not accept that it is the responsibility of Government to lay on a social service subsidised by public funds to provide transport. That has never been our policy and it will not be now. If it is the policy of hon. Members opposite I hope that they will get up and say so, but that was virtually what was advocated to me.

In the national picture we have done a great deal to keep these transport services going. It is to a large extent a matter for local adjustment to do it. The picture in Northumberland is not a typical picture. The typical picture is not one of a number of small companies covering a rural area, but of large operators operating in urban and rural areas together and carrying their loss-making rural services on the profit-making urban services.

The specific responsibility of our traffic commissioners has been throughout to encourage just that to happen. They are able to do that by the influence they have in protecting the profitable urban lines so long as the individual operating companies are carrying the unprofitable rural ones. Seventy per cent. to 80 per cent. of the services are covered in this way, and the big operating companies operate from 30 per cent. to 50 per cent. of their total mileage in the form of unprofitable mileage in rural areas.

A great deal is being done, I agree not very spectacularly, but very effectively, to keep these services going in just the way hon. Members were advocating. Following receipt of the report from Northumberland, we had an urgent discussion with the traffic commissioners to see what we could do to meet the problems in that area. I leave the House in no doubt that our traffic commissioners are continually on this job. By their direct influence a great deal has been done to keep these rural services going.

Mr. Spence

rose—

Mr. Nugent

I have only two more minutes left, and I cannot allow my hon. Friend to intervene at the moment.

I want to put on record also that as well as these discussions with the traffic commissioners we have been studying this problem afresh. We realise that with the very rapid increase of new motor cars and motor-cycles the situation is worsening in many areas. Therefore, we have been studying it in our Department this summer.

Mr. John Peyton (Yeovil)

Can my hon. Friend say whether the Treasury is associated with his Department in that study?

Mr. Nugent

My right hon. Friend replied last week that our Department and other interested Departments are studying the problem, and the Treasury, as an interested Department, is studying the evidence with us. That includes a study of the report by the Northumberland Rural Community Council.

In effect, therefore, the request made particularly by my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham has been met. We are doing just that. We realise that this is an urgent problem. There is a serious difficulty for many people living in these rural areas. We are most anxious to do what we can to meet their problems but I urge upon the House to recognise that a very great deal is being done, has been done, and will continue to be done by the methods which I have described. But if, as a result of this study which is now going on, we can find fresh methods to meet this problem, to ameliorate it so as to keep transport going in these areas we shall certainly do so. Nobody realises better than I do just how important that is. Quite obviously, when there is something to report my right hon. Friend, or whoever is appropriate, will tell the House what are the fruits of this study.

Mr. Spence

Has my hon. Friend considered tying up—

The question having been proposed after Ten o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at eleven minutes to Eleven o'clock.