HC Deb 23 July 1958 vol 592 cc583-9

Lords Amendment: In page 18, line 7, at end insert new Clause "C": .—(1) In this section— the Commission" means the British Transport Commission; the engineer" means an engineer to be appointed by the Commission; plans" includes sections and descriptions; railway property" means land belonging to or occupied by the Commission, including the railways and railway works of the Commission; the relevant works" means so much of any of the authorised works or works under section nine of this Act as is or, when completed, will be within a distance from railway property (measured in any direction) of, in the case of surface works, ten feet or, in the case of the Underpass or any other underground works, fifty feet. (2) The Council shall not, under the powers of this Act, acquire compulsorily any lands of the Commission but the Council may acquire compulsorily such easements and rights in the lands of the Commission as they may reasonably require for the purposes of the relevant works. (3) The Council shall, except in case of emergency, give the engineer twenty-eight days' notice of their intention to commence any of the relevant works, and those works shall be carried out with all reasonable despatch under the supervision (if given) and to the reasonable satisfaction of the engineer in accordance with plans (in this section referred to as "the approved plans")—

  1. (a) which have been approved by the engineer, or
  2. (b) as respects which the engineer has not, within twenty-eight days after the plans have been delivered by the Council to the Commission, given notice to the Council either approving or rejecting them, or
  3. (c) which, after being rejected by the engineer, have been settled by arbitration under this section.
(4) The Council shall not, in carrying out any of the relevant works, cause avoidable damage to railway property or unnecessarily interfere with the conduct of traffic on the railways of the Commission or the use by passengers of railway property; and if, in carrying out any of those works, the Council cause damage to railway property or interfere with the conduct of traffic on the railways of the Commission or the use by passengers of railway property, then, notwithstanding that the works were carried out in accordance with the approved plans and to the satisfaction of the engineer, the Commission shall be entitled to recover from the Council the amount of any loss thereby suffered by the Commission. (5) The Council shall afford reasonable facilities to the engineer for access to any of of the relevant works while they are being carried out by the Council and shall supply to the engineer all such information as he may reasonably require with regard to those works. (6) If the nature of any of those of the relevant works which consist of underground works is such that it is reasonable that any part thereof should be carried out by the Commission instead of by the Council, and the Commission give notice to the Council to that effect within twenty-eight days after the plans of the relevant works have been delivered, with a view to their approval by the engineer, by the Council to the Commission, then—
  1. (a) if the Council desire that part to be carried out it shall be carried out by the Commission, acting as agents of the Council, in accordance with the approved plans, and with all reasonable despatch, and
  2. (b) the Commission shall be entitled to recover the reasonable cost of carrying it out from the Council.
 (7) If it appears to the Commission that the nature of any of the relevant works is such that it is reasonable that, before the work is carried out, preliminary work should be carried out to ensure the stability of railway property or protect it from injury, or to avoid delay or other inconvenience to railway passengers, and the Commission give notice to the Council to that effect, specifying the required preliminary work, within twenty-eight days after the plans of the relevant works have been delivered, with a view to their approval by the engineer, by the Council to the Commission, then—
  1. (a) the preliminary work shall be carried out by the Commission with all reasonable despatch,
  2. (b) the Council shall not commence the relevant works until the engineer has given them notice that the preliminary work has been completed, and
  3. (c) the Commission shall be entitled to recover the reasonable cost of carrying out the preliminary work from the Council.
 (8) The Commission shall be entitled to recover from the Council any expenses incurred by the Commission—
  1. (a) in respect of the employment of persons whom it may be necessary or desirable to appoint for inspecting or watching any railway property affected by the carrying out of the relevant works and for preventing or dealing with any interference, obstruction or danger arising in the course of carrying out those works; and
  2. (b) in providing lighting on railway property, being lighting made necessary or desirable by the carrying out of those works.
 (9) If, during the period beginning with the commencement of the relevant works and ending twelve months after the completion of those works, any alteration or addition to railway property situated within or adjacent to the limits of deviation shown on the deposited plans is, in the opinion of the Commission, made necessary by reason of the carrying out of the relevant works, the Commission shall give to the Council twenty-eight days' notice (or in the case of emergency such notice as may be practicable) before beginning to carry out that alteration or addition and shall be entitled to recover from the Council the reasonable cost of carrying it out; and if the alteration or addition is likely to give rise to an increase or a reduction in the cost of maintaining, working and renewing such railway property as aforesaid the Commission shall be entitled to recover from the Council a capital sum equivalent to that increase or, as the case may be, shall pay to the Council a capital sum equivalent to that reduction. (10) The Commission shall afford reasonable facilities to the Council for access to any works carried out by the Commission under the foregoing provisions of this section and shall supply the Council with all such information as they may reasonably require with regard to those works. (11) If an authority charged by virtue of this Act with the duty of maintaining any of those of the relevant works which consist of underground works is in default of that duty, the Commission may, after giving reasonable notice of the default to that authority, carry out such work as may be necessary to remedy the default, and shall be entitled to recover the reasonable cost of carrying out that work from the authority in default. (12) If, by reason of any of the relevant works, damage is caused to railway property or the Commission otherwise suffer loss in relation to their railway undertaking then, notwithstanding that the work in question was carried out by the Commission on behalf of the Council, or was carried out by the Council in accordance with the approved plans and to the satisfaction of the engineer, the Commission shall be entitled to recover from the Council the amount of that loss: Provided that this subsection shall not apply—
  1. (a) as respects loss arising by reason of a claim made by any person against the Commission unless reasonable notice of the claim was given by the Commission to the Council and, in a case where the claim was compromised, the Council agreed to the compromise;
  2. (b) as respects loss caused by the negligence of the Commission or of any servant or contractor employed by them.
 (13) Any dispute arising under this section shall be settled by arbitration. (14) The Council and the Commission may, by agreement in writing, provide that this section shall have effect as if any provision thereof specified in the agreement were omitted.

Mr. Nugent

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This Clause contains certain detailed provisions for the protection of the British Transport Commission, and is aimed particularly at protecting the Commission's railway property at Hyde Park Corner and at Marble Arch. The Commission's greatest concern, of course, is the large-scale excavations required for the two tunnels at Hyde Park Corner, and the proximity those must have to its railway station at Hyde Park Corner, and, indeed, to the Underground itself. They come very close. This type of Clause is common to works Bills is in the usual form, and has been agreed in detail with the Commission.

Mr. Ernest Davies

If this Clause is in the usual form, why was it not included in the original Bill? What I cannot understand is that here we have a new Clause consisting of about 140 lines and it is only now presented to this House. If the Commission has to be protected and given safeguards—as we all agree that it should—then at an earlier stage of these proceedings the Ministry of Transport should have realised that and have incorporated the safeguards in the original Bill as presented to this House.

Of course, we know full well that one of the explanations is that the Government kept changing their mind over this. In the first place, they presented the Bill without the underpasses. Then, because the Opposition were on their toes, the Government realised the necessity for the underpass at Hyde Park Corner. The Ministry accepted that. It accepted the one underpass. Then it had second thoughts and decided that it would have two. In the meantime, it had forgotten all about the existence of the British Transport Commission and the fact that if it built these two underpasses at Hyde Park Corner the work would interfere with the Tube station there. Having suddenly discovered that, the London Transport Commission, presumably, quite naturally came along to the Ministry and said, "Look here, we want to be sure that we are not going to be harmed by the construction of the underpasses which at this late stage you have suddenly decided are necessary."

I wish to ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether the Clause has been agreed with the Commission, whether the Commission is satisfied that there will not be undue interference with the Hyde Park Corner station, that the works can proceed without undue interference with the operation of the Piccadilly Line there, and that it is quite satisfied that it is fully covered by the Clause.

It seems to me that it is certainly necessary that the Commission should be fully indemnified against any damage or loss which the Clause seems to provide. It seems most peculiar that only when the Bill goes to the other place and goes before a Select Committee, where, presumably, the Commission had the opportunity of making its representations, that this was agreed to.

This is one of those Clauses which were discussed and agreed on by the Select Committee, and we in this House have no knowledge of the arguments put forward on either side. The Clause, presumably proposed by the Government, was there accepted, and yet we in this House have no knowledge of the arguments put forward on either side.

Mr. Nugent

With the leave of the House, I will reply to the hon. Gentleman's intervention.

This new Clause proposed by the British Transport Commission was not opposed by us or by anyone else in another place. Indeed, it was readily accepted and agreed in detail with ourselves. I must congratulate the hon. Gentleman on the ingenious argument that he thought up to remind us that we had changed our minds on more than one occasion with regard to the provision of underpasses. I can assure him, however, that that was not the reason for the Clause not being included in the Bill in the first place. It could not be included.

The procedure is that the Bill is published without the Commission having formal knowledge of what is going to appear in it. We are not at liberty as a Government Department to consult any outside interests, although we know that they have an interest of this kind. Even the Commission must be in the position of any other statutory authority in these matters. Therefore, the Commission cannot make its objection until the Bill is actually published. At that stage it is able to make its objection, and the objection can be taken care of.

Mr. Ernest Davies

Surely the Parliamentary Secretary is not suggesting that the Government worked out the scheme for Hyde Park Corner and drew up the Bill without consulting the Commission which would be very substantially affected both as regards surface traffic, the London Transport buses, and also as regards its underground traffic as far as the tube railways are concerned. Surely there was some consultation with the Commission before the Bill was prepared.

Mr. Nugent

Of course, the Commission's point of view in regard to the railways and, indeed, to its bus traffic, was very carefully considered in the whole design and conception, but formal provision for these matters in a statutory way cannot be provided for until after the Bill has been published. That is common form. After the Bill has been published, then the Commission can come formally forward with its objection. That is then met by a Clause which is put into the Bill, in a form which is virtually common form in these circumstances and which is agreed in every detail between us.

I can assure the House that we are here following normal procedure. The fact that the Clause was not in the Bill before was not due to any inadvertence or mistake on our part. I can also assure the hon. Gentleman that the arrangements here indicated in the Clause met fully every point that the Commission wished to have covered. They have been discussed in detail and agreed, and the Commission is satisfied that with that coverage the underpasses can be constructed, close though they go the station and to the railway, and that their operations will not be interfered with.

Question put and agreed to.