§ Mr. E. FletcherI beg to move, in page 11, line 10, to leave out "for the purpose of" and to insert "in connection with".
This is a short point, but an important one, because it raises the matter of fundamental importance relating to the basic 440 principles of British justice. As the Clause reads at present, it provides, quite rightly, that if a person applying for relief from duty under Clauses 5 or 6 makes any false statement, or knowingly or recklessly furnishes a document knowing it to be false, he is subject to appropriate penalties, and no one will quarrel with that.
We seek, by this Amendment, to remove the taint of discrimination which exists as the Clause stands. We seek to provide that the same penalties shall be suffered by a person who either applies for relief from duty or who opposes such an application.
It seems wrong that the sanction of these penalties should apply merely to merchants who make application. They should apply equally to applicants for relief from duty and to manufacturers who, in contesting such applications, supply false evidence knowingly or recklessly. What is sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander. Why should one section be exposed to penalties for false statements and another section produce false statements with impunity? I should think that proposition only needs to be stated in those elementary terms to find acceptance on both sides of the House.
§ Mr. John Paton (Norwich, North)I beg to second the Amendment.
§ Mr. Vaughan-MorganThe hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) has said that the purpose of the Amendment is to penalise anyone who supplies false information with the object of causing an application for relief to be rejected. I agree that there is obvious force in the argument. Falsehood is just as reprehensible whether told to obtain relief or to prevent relief, and therefore ought to be penalised. Sin is sin and, like President Coolidge, we are all "agin it".
This point has been argued, and my right hon. Friend and I have considered it very carefully. We have come to the conclusion that we cannot accept the Amendment. I hope that I shall carry the hon. Member for Islington, East with me by going in some detail into the argument.
Any extension of penal provisions beyond the necessary minimum is highly undesirable and to be avoided. I am advised that experience of administering these provisions in no way suggests that 441 there is a real need for the extension that is proposed nor has any evidence been produced today. It is only an hypothesis. In the absence of such evidence the House would, I am sure, accept it that the practice does not prevail.
The purpose of Clause 10 is to deter anyone making wilfully false statements in order to obtain relief, bearing in mind that the effect of a duty-free direction is to relieve the person who receives it from a general tax which has been imposed by Parliament. Obviously, the applicant has a direct financial interest, which is often substantial, in the matter. The offence is, in fact, a fraud or attempted fraud on the Revenue.
This is quite different from the position of anyone who may be consulted—to quote the words of the Amendment—in connection with an application. The manufacturer who may be consulted has not a similar stake in the outcome of the decision. His would be a general objection to being deprived of the protection which Parliament had approved. Furthermore, his conduct, if he were to make a false statement, although morally reprehensible, would not be an offence against the public Revenue. It may also happen that people who are consulted have no interest in the matter at all.
The Board of Trade is very dependent upon the voluntary co-operation of British manufacturers, with or without an interest in the matter, when it is examining applications for duty or remission. The proposed penal provisions would be resented by those whom we consult and could easily have the effect of making them unwilling to cooperate with the Board of Trade or of making them feel less free to give us the information which we require. This, in turn, would seriously embarrass the administration of the duty-free licensing system. Of course, all statements are carefully scrutinised. Where the circumstances are appropriate they are also scrutinised by the applicant. The decision to recommend a duty-free direction to which a false statement had materially contributed could easily be reversed, but it does not follow that it is necessary or desirable to make it a penal offence. The Board would be able to draw its own conclusions.
To sum up, we believe that it is wrong it to extend the penal provisions in a way 442 which experience shows to be quite unnecessary. We do not believe that it is wrong, however, to penalise fraud or attempted fraud on the Revenue.
§ Mr. JayThe Minister has made a most extraordinary speech as a result of which I find myself even more in support of the Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) than I was before.
The Minister says that no one wants to extend the list of criminal offences. That may be so as a general proposition, but, after all, he is asking us to enact these penalties for one section of the persons concerned. It is not logical to say that he can justify doing it for one section and not doing it for the other because he does not want to extend the range of penal offences.
Secondly, he told us that no evidence has been produced that false statements ever were made by those opposing relief, as distinct from those who were proposing relief. We have no evidence that false statements have been made on the other side. The Minister then produced the extraordinary argument that applicants for relief have a financial interest in getting relief from import duties. Equally so has the opponent of relief. He has an obvious financial interest in doing so. So has the applicant for a higher duty.
The Minister then produced the even odder argument that to apply for relief and make false statements was a fraud on the public Revenue, but to make false statements in opposing relief was not a fraud on the public Revenue, did not matter, and should not be punished by law. It is not relevant in any major fashion in this issue whether it is a fraud on the public Revenue or not. It is surely just as serious if a wrong decision on public policy is made by the Board of Trade and the Treasury because false statements have been made by an interested party opposing the granting of relief. That seems entirely without force.
Finally, the Minister of State said that if we introduced into the Bill penal provisions threatening persons who, recklessly and knowingly, make false statements, that would damage relations with traders and manufacturers, but the Minister of State and his right hon. Friend are applying these provisions to other persons 443 who apply for relief and make false statements. If the argument is valid in the case of those on one side, it is equally valid to those on the other side. I have seldom heard a less convincing defence of the attitude of the Government and I hope that hon. Members will support the Amendment.
§ 7.0 P.m.
§ Mr. RhodesWhy is it not important if a person opposing a relief tells a lie yet important if the person who wants a relief tells a lie? Will the right hon. Gentleman explain that?
§ Sir D. EcclesI quite see the point raised by hon. Members opposite, but we are dealing with a very large number of cases, many thousands a year, in which these questions have to be investigated. I think hon. Members opposite have not realised that we do not only consult people who are directly opposed to applications. Suppose a man says that he wants to import a certain kind of machine and wishes to have duty relief because no comparable machine is made in this country. It is not only to the makers of that particular kind of machine that we would go. There are many people who are knowledgeable in that matter and who lend us their experience, but they have no interest in the case at all.
Very often it pays to go to a consulting engineer or designer, or someone of that kind. To get that kind of cooperation, which is more important to us than anything else when we are considering whether there should be duty relief, it has to be on a voluntary basis. Bearing in mind that we have not had any experience of false statements of this kind being made, I do not think it right to enlarge the area of the penalty. We already have in another Act the penalty for which we are asking here. We are not extending it. In Section 301 of the Customs and Excise Act, 1952, and, as formerly, in Section 168 of the Customs Consolidation Act, 1876, there are penalties for false statements, but we do not think they are quite satisfactory in the form they are in existing legislation. We are merely tidying them up in this Clause.
§ Mr. RhodesReverting to the illustration given by the right hon. Gentleman, a machine might be made in this country similar to the one which the firm wishes to import from abroad. It might be the same in construction to the one made abroad and a good case could be made against the importation, but it might be that the production of the foreign machine is considerably more than the same type of machine manufactured here. False or misleading evidence could be given about the foreign machine.
§ Mr. E. FletcherI found the explanations, of the Minister of State and the President thoroughly unsatisfactory—
§ Mr. SpeakerThe hon. Member moved the Amendment and has already spoken to it. He must ask leave of the House, and obtain it if he wishes to speak again.
§ Mr. FletcherI can only speak again by leave of the House. I intervene only to say that I found the remarks of the President of the Board of Trade quite unsatisfactory. He referred to a possible difficulty in getting assistance from experts and consultants. No one suggests that they are likely to make false or reckless statements, or to be deterred by this Clause from giving advice. The Clause is designed to prevent reckless statements being made by interested parties. The speeches of the President of the Board of Trade and the Minister of State might almost amount to an open invitation to people to make false statements recklessly, with impunity, in opposing these applications.
It does not seem to me that there could be any justification for refusing an Amendment of this kind. It seeks to provide that equal penalties for false statements should be available to the Government, both in the case of applicants for assistance and in the case of those who oppose such applications. I very much hope my hon. Friends will press this matter to a Division.
§ Question put, That the words "for the purpose of" stand part of the Bill:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 186, Noes 147.
437| Division No. 31.] | AYES | [6.40 p.m |
| Ainsley, J. W. | Grey, C. F. | Moody, A. S. |
| Allen, Arthur (Bosworth) | Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) | Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.) |
| Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) | Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) | Mort, D. L. |
| Awbery, S. S. | Griffiths, William (Exchange) | Neal, Harold (Bolsover) |
| Balfour, A. | Grimond, J. | Oswald, T. |
| Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.) | Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley) | Owen, W. J. |
| Blenkinsop, A. | Hannan, W. | Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley) |
| Blyton, W. R. | Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.) | Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) |
| Boardman, H. | Hastings, S. | Palmer, A. M. F. |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. | Hayman, F. H. | Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.) |
| Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.) | Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis) | Pargiter, G. A. |
| Braddcok, Mrs. Elizabeth | Herbison, Miss M. | Parker, J. |
| Brockway, A. F. | Hobson, C. R. (Keighley) | Paton, John |
| Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Holman, P. | Pearson, A. |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper) | Holmes, Horace | Peart, T. F. |
| Brown, Thomas (Ince) | Howell, Charles (Perry Barr) | Pentland, N. |
| Burke, W. A. | Howell, Denis (All Saints) | Popplewell, E. |
| Callaghan, L. J. | Hoy, J. H. | Prentice, R. E. |
| Carmichael, J. | Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) | Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Champion, A. J. | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Probert, A. R. |
| Chapman, W. D. | Hunter, A. E. | Randall, H. E. |
| Chetwynd, G. R. | Irving, Sydney (Dartford) | Rankin, John |
| Clunie, J. | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. | Redhead, E. C. |
| Colliok, P. H. (Birkenhead) | Janner, B. | Reeves, J. |
| Collins, V. J. (Shoreditch & Finsbury) | Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T. | Rhodes, H. |
| Corbet, Mrs. Freda | Jones, Rt. Hon. A. Creech (Wakefield) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Craddook, George (Bradford, S.) | Jones, Jack (Rotherham) | Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.) |
| Crossman, R. H. S. | Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) |
| Cullen, Mrs. A. | Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) | Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E. |
| Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.) | Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. | Silverman, Julius (Aston) |
| Davies, Stephen (Merthyr) | King, Dr. H. M. | Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) |
| Deer, G. | Lawson, G. M. | Skeffington, A. M. |
| Delargy, H. J. | Lee, Frederick (Newton) | Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.) |
| Diamond, John | Logan, D. G. | Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.) |
| Dodds, N. N. | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Snow, J. W. |
| Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. | MacColl, J. E. | Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank |
| Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse) | MacDermot, Niall | Sparks, J. A. |
| Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) | McKay, John (Wallsend) | Steele, T. |
| Fernyhough, E | McLeavy, Frank | Stewart, Michael (Fulham) |
| Fienburgh, W. | MacMillan M. K. (Western Isles) | Stones, W. (Consett) |
| Finch, H. J. | MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) | Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E. |
| Fletcher, Eric | Mahon, Simon | Swingler, S. T. |
| Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N. | Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) |
| Gibson, C. W. | Mason, Roy | Taylor, John (West Lothian) |
| Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. | Mikardo, Ian | Thomson, George (Dundee, E.) |
| Greenwood, Anthony | Mitchison, G. R. | Viant, S. P. |
| Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R. | Monslow, W. | Wade, D. W. |
| Warbey, W. N. | Williams, David (Neath) | Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A. |
| Watkins, T. E. | Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley) | Woof, R. E. |
| Wells, Percy (Faversham) | Williams, W. R. (Openshaw) | Yates, V. (Ladywood) |
| Wheeldon, W. E. | Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.) | Zilliacus, K. |
| Wilkins, W. A. | Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton) | |
| Willey, Frederick | Winterbottom, Richard | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Mr. Short and Mr. Simmons | ||
| NOES | ||
| Agnew, Sir Peter | Gurden, Harold | Neave, Airey |
| Aitken, W. T. | Harris, Reader (Heston) | Nicholls, Harmar |
| Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton) | Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon) | Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch) |
| Armstrong, C. W. | Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) | Noble, Comdr. Rt. Hon. Allan |
| Ashton, H. | Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.) | Nugent, G. R. H. |
| Baldwin, A. E. | Head, Rt. Hon. A. H. | Oakshott, H. D. |
| Balniel, Lord | Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel | O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.) |
| Barlow, Sir John | Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G. | Orr, Capt. L. P. S. |
| Barter, John | Henderson, John (Cathcart) | Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.) |
| Baxter, Sir Beverley | Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W. | Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-S-Mare) |
| Beamish, Col. Tufton | Hill, Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton) | Page, R. G. |
| Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.) | Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) | Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale) |
| Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.) | Hill, John (S. Norfolk) | Partridge, E. |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald | Hinchingbrooke, Viscount | Peel, W. J. |
| Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) | Hirst, Geoffrey | Peyton, J. W. W. |
| Biggs-Davison, J. A. | Hobson, John (Warwick & Leam'gt'n) | Pike, Miss Mervyn |
| Bingham, R. M. | Holland-Martin, C. J. | Pitt, Miss E. M. |
| Bishop, F. P. | Hope, Lord John | Pott, H. P. |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A. | Hornby, R. P. | Powell, J. Enoch |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Horobin, Sir Ian | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Brooman-White, R. C. | Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J. | Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.) |
| Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton) | Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'gh, W.) | Rawlinson, Peter |
| Bryan, P. | Hutchison, Michael Clark (E'b'gh, S.) | Redmayne, M. |
| Burden, F. F. A. | Hyde, Montgomery | Remnant, Hon. P. |
| Butcher, Sir Herbert | Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry | Ridsdale, J. E. |
| Carr, Robert | Iremonger, T. L. | Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley) |
| Channon, Sir Henry | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Robertson, Sir David |
| Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.) | Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) | Roper, Sir Harold |
| Cole, Norman | Jennings, Sir Roland (Hallam) | Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard |
| Cooke, Robert | Johnson, Eric (Blackley) | Russell, R. S. |
| Cooper, A. E. | Joseph, Sir Keith | Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R. |
| Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K. | Kaberry, D. | Sharples, R. C. |
| Corfield, Capt. F. V. | Kerby, Capt. H. B. | Shepherd, William |
| Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) | Kerr, Sir Hamilton | Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.) |
| Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E. | Kershaw, J. A. | Smithers, Peter (Winchester) |
| Crowder, Sir John (Finchley) | Kimball, M. | Spearman, Sir Alexander |
| Cunningham, Knox | Kirk, P. M. | Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard |
| Currie, G. B. H. | Lagden G. W. | Stevens, Geoffrey |
| Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA. | Lambton, Viscount | Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.) |
| Doughty, C. J. A. | Lancaster, Col. C. G. | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm |
| Drayson, G. B. | Leavey, J. A. | Storey, S. |
| du Cann, E. D. L. | Leburn, W. G. | Studholme, Sir Henry |
| Dugdale, Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond) | Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. | Summers, Sir Spencer |
| Duncan, Sir James | Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield) | Taylor, William (Bradford, N.) |
| Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David | Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T. | Teeling, W. |
| Temple, John M. | ||
| Elliott, R. W. (N'castle upon Tyne, N.) | Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.) | Thompson, Kenneth (Walton) |
| Fell, A. | Linstead, Sir H. N. | Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, S.) |
| Finlay, Graeme | Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.) | Thornton-Kemsley, C. N. |
| Fisher, Nigel | Lucas, P. B. (Brentford & Chiswick) | Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.) |
| Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmbe & Lonsdale) | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H. |
| Gammans, Lady | Macdonald, Sir Peter | Vaughan-Morgan, J. K. |
| Garner-Evans, E. H. | McKibbin, A. J. | Vickers, Miss Joan |
| George, J. C. (Pollok) | Mackie, J. H. (Galloway) | Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F. |
| Gibson-Watt, D. | McLaughlin, Mrs. P. | Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.) |
| Glover, D. | Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Lancaster) | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Derek |
| Glyn, Col. R. | McLean, Neil (Inverness) | Ward, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Worcester) |
| Godber, J. B. | Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax) | Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth) |
| Gomme-Duncan, Col. Sir Alan | Maddan, Martin | Webbe, Sir H, |
| Goodhart, Philip | Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark) | White law, W. S. I. |
| Gower, H. R. | Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R. | Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.) |
| Graham, Sir Fergus | Markham, Major Sir Frank | Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter) |
| Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich) | Mathew, R. | Wills, G. (Bridgwater) |
| Green, A. | Maude, Angus | Wood, Hon. R. |
| Gresham Cooke, R. | Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C. | Woollam, John Victor |
| Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury) | Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles | |
| Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G. | Nabarro, G. D. N. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Mr. Barber and Mr. Hughes-Young. |
| Division No. 32.] | AYES | [7.5 p.m. |
| Agnew, Sir Peter | Gurden, Harold | Neave, Airey |
| Aitken, W. T. | Harris, Reader (Heston) | Nicholls, Harman |
| Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton) | Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon) | Noble, Comdr, Rt. Hon. Allan |
| Armstrong, C. W | Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) | Nugent, G. R. H. |
| Ashton, H. | Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.) | Oakshott, H. D. |
| Baldwin, A. E. | Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel | O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.) |
| Balniel, Lord | Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G. | Orr, Capt. L. P. S. |
| Barlow, Sir John | Henderson, John (Cathcart) | Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.) |
| Barter, John | Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W. | Page, R. G. |
| Baiter, Sir Beverley | Hill, Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton) | Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale) |
| Beamish, Col. Tufton | Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) | Partridge, E. |
| Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.) | Hill, John (S. Norfolk) | Peel, W. J. |
| Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.) | Hirst, Geoffrey | Peyton, J. W. W. |
| Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) | Hobson, John (Warwick & Leam'gt'n) | Pike, Miss Mervyn |
| Bidgood, J. C. | Holland-Martin, C. J. | Pitt, Miss E. M. |
| Biggs-Davison, J. A. | Hope, Lord John | Pott, H. P. |
| Bingham, R. M. | Hornby, R. P. | Powell, J. Enoch |
| Bishop, F. P. | Horobin, Sir Ian | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Body, R. F. | Hughes-Young, M. H. C. | Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.) |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A. | Hutchison, Michael Clark (E'b'gh, S) | Rawlinson, Peter |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'gh, W.) | Redmayne, M. |
| Bryan, P. | Hyde, Montgomery | Remnant, Hon. P. |
| Butcher, Sir Herbert | Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry | Ridsdale, J. E. |
| Channon, Sir Henry | Iremonger, T. L. | Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley) |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Robertson, Sir David |
| Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.) | Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) | Roper, Sir Harold |
| Cole, Norman | Jennings, Sir Roland (Hallam) | Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard |
| Coolie, Robert | Johnson, Eric (Blackley) | Russell, R. S. |
| Cooper, A. E. | Joseph, Sir Keith | Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R. |
| Cordeaux, Lt.-Col J. K. | Kaberry, D. | Sharples, R. C. |
| Corfield, Capt. F. V. | Keegan, D. | Shepherd, William |
| Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) | Kerby, Capt, H. B. | Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.) |
| Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E. | Kerr, Sir Hamilton | Smithers, Peter (Winchester) |
| Crowder, Sir John (Finchley) | Kershaw, J. A. | Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard |
| Cunningham, Knox | Kimball, M. | Stevens, Geoffrey |
| Currie, G. B. H. | Kirk, P. M. | Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.) |
| Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA. | Lagden, G. W. | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm |
| Doughty, C. J. A. | Lancaster, Col. C. G. | Storey, S. |
| du Cann, E. D. L. | Langford-Holt, J. A. | Studholme, Sir Henry |
| Dugdale, Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond) | Leavey, J. A. | Summers, Sir Spencer |
| Duncan, Sir James | Leburn, W. G. | Taylor, William (Bradford, N.) |
| Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David | Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. | Teeling, W. |
| Elliott, R. W. (N'castle upon Tyne, N.) | Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield) | Temple, John M. |
| Thompson, Kenneth (Walton) | ||
| Fell, A. | Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.) | Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, S.) |
| Finlay, Graeme | Linstead, Sir H. N. | Thornton-Kemsley, C. N. |
| Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmbe & Lonsdale) | Lloyd, Mal Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.) | Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.) |
| Gammans, Lady | Low, Rt. Hon. A. R. W. | Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H. |
| Garner-Evans, E. H. | Lucas, P. B. (Brentford & Chiswick) | Vaughan-Morgan, J. K. |
| George, J. C. (Pollok) | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | Vickers, Miss Joan |
| Gibson-Watt, D. | Macdonald, Sir Peter | Wade, D. W. |
| Glover, D. | McKibbin, A. J. | Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.) |
| Glyn, Col. R. | Mackie, J. H. (Galloway) | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Derek |
| Godber, J. B. | McLaughlin, Mrs. P. | Ward, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Worcester) |
| Gomme-Duncan, Col. Sir Alan | Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Lancaster) | Webbe, Sir H. |
| Goodhart, Philip | Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax) | Whitelaw, W. S. I. |
| Gower, H. R. | Maddan, Martin | Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S) |
| Graham, Sir Fergus | Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark) | Wills, G. (Bridgwater) |
| Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich) | Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R. | Wood, Hon. R. |
| Green, A. | Markham, Major Sir Frank | Woollam, John Victor |
| Gresham Cooke, R. | Mathew, R. | |
| Grimond, J. | Maude, Angus | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury) | Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C. | Mr. Barber and |
| Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G. | Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles | Mr. Brooman-White. |
| NOES | ||
| Ainsley, J. W. | Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Cullen, Mrs. A. |
| Allen, Arthur (Bosworth) | Brown, Thomas (Ince) | Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.) |
| Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) | Burke, W. A. | Davies, Stephen (Merthyr) |
| Awbery, S. S. | Callaghan, L. J. | Deer, G. |
| Balfour, A. | Carmichael, J. | Delargy, H. J. |
| Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.) | Champion, A. J. | Diamond, John |
| Blenkinsop, A. | Chapman, W. D. | Dodds, N. N. |
| Blyton, W. R. | Chetwynd, G. R. | Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. |
| Boardman, H. | Clunie, J. | Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. | Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead) | Fernyhough, E. |
| Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.) | Collins, V. J. (Shoreditch & Finsbury) | Fienburgh, W. |
| Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth | Corbet, Mrs. Freda | Finch, H. J. |
| Brockway, A. F. | Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Fletcher, Eric |
| Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N. | Logan, D. G. | Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E. |
| Gibson, C. W. | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Short, E. W. |
| Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. | MacColl, J. E. | Silverman, Julius (Aston) |
| Greenwood, Anthony | MacDermot, Niall | Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) |
| Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R. | McKay, John (Wallsend) | Skeffington, A. M. |
| Grey, C. F. | McLeavy, Frank | Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.) |
| Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) | MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles) | Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.) |
| Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) | MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) | Snow, J. W. |
| Griffiths, William (Exchange) | Mahon, Simon | Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank |
| Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colney Valley) | Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Sparks, J. A. |
| Hannan, W. | Mason, Roy | Steele, T. |
| Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.) | Mitchison, G. R. | Stewart, Michael (Fulham) |
| Hastings, S. | Monslow, W. | Stones, W. (Consett) |
| Hayman, F. H. | Moody, A. S. | Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E. |
| Healey, Denis | Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.) | Swingier, S. T. |
| Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis) | Mort, D. L. | Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) |
| Herbison, Miss M. | Neal, Harold (Bolsover) | Thomson, George (Dundee, E.) |
| Hobson, C. R. (Keighley) | Oswald, T. | Viant, S. P. |
| Holman, P. | Owen, W. J. | Warbey, W. N. |
| Houghton, Douglas | Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley) | Watkins, T. E. |
| Howell, Charles (Perry Barr) | Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) | Wells, Percy (Faversham) |
| Howell, Denis (All Saints) | Palmer, A. M. F. | Wheeldon, W. E. |
| Hoy, J. H. | Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.) | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) | Pargiter, G. A. | Willey, Frederick |
| Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Parker, J. | Williams, David (Neath) |
| Hunter, A. E. | Paton, John | Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley) |
| Irving, Sydney (Dartford) | Pearson, A. | Williams, W. R. (Openshaw) |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. | Peart, T. F. | Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.) |
| Janner, B. | Pentland, N. | Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton) |
| Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T. | Popplewell, E. | Winterbottom, Richard |
| Jones, David (The Hartlepools) | Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) | Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A. |
| Jones, Jack (Rotherham) | Probert, A. R. | Woof, R. E. |
| Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Randall, H. E. | Yates, V. (Ladywood) |
| Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. | Redhead, E. C. | Zilliacus, K. |
| King, Dr. H. M. | Rhodes, H. | |
| Lewson, G. M. | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Lee, Frederick (Newton) | Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) | Mr. Holmes and Mr. Simmons. |
§ Mr. E. FletcherI beg to move, in page 11, to leave out lines 16 and 17.
The Amendment was put down for the purpose of obtaining some elucidation. As I understand it, the sanctions suggested in the Bill against persons who make false statements in support of their applications are twofold. Any decision obtained as a result of a false statement is to be nugatory under paragraph (a), and under paragraph (b), which seems to me to be a much more effective sanction, the person making the false statement is liable to a fine or a term of imprisonment or both.
I want to ask the Minister whether there is any necessity for paragraph (a). As I understand the Bill, the granting of relief from duty can be reviewed at any time in the light of new information, and I therefore presume that even without this express power, if relief from duty had been obtained as a result of false statements it could be cancelled.
It may well be that paragraph (a) is required, where an importer has imported something duty-free on the strength of the false statement, to enable the Board of Trade to claim the duty which would have been paid, but I should have thought that that result could be achieved otherwise. Perhaps
§ the Minister of State would clarify why the paragraph is considered necessary.
§ Mr. W. R. Williams (Manchester, Openshaw)I beg to second the Amendment.
§ 7.15 p.m.
§ Mr. Vaughan-MorganI assure the hon. Member that the provision is very much needed. The effect of the Amendment would be that the applicant who secured relief from duty by means of a false statement would be allowed to continue to enjoy the relief, and I hardly think that it is the hon. Member's intention that he should be allowed to get away with his ill-gotten gains.
§ Mr. FletcherIn view of that explanation, which I rather expected, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.