HC Deb 28 January 1958 vol 581 cc200-3
45. Mr. Brockway

asked the Prime Minister if he will now propose the international banning of hydrogen-bomb tests, in view of the evidence, particulars of which have been communicated to him by the hon. Member for Eton and Slough, that atom dust instead of being dispersed evenly round the earth is blown along lines of latitude through North America, most of Europe, including Great Britain, and Siberia with the danger that twelve or more units of strontium will be found in the fall-out in these areas.

51. Mr. Zilliacus

asked the Prime Minister whether, since it is now known that radioactive fall-out is zoned according to prevailing winds in the stratosphere, that this country is in a zone of heavy fall-out and that precipitation here may already be dangerous to health and life, especially among infants, he will reconsider his refusal to negotiate an agreement banning hydrogen bomb tests pending agreement on other aspects of disarmament, and will meanwhile suspend tests by this country.

53. Mr. Frank Allaun

asked the Prime Minister if, in the light of the fact that the dangers of bone cancer and leukemia from hydrogen bomb explosions are now known to be greater than was previously believed, he will consider stopping all such British tests immediately.

The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Lord Privy Seal (Mr. R. A. Butler)

I have been asked to reply.

I would refer the hon. Members to my reply to the hon. Member for Wood Green (Mrs. Butler) on 23rd January.

Mr. Brockway

But is not the evidence which I have forwarded to the Prime Minister later than that? Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to the article in the Lancet for 28th December, in which there is a report by the committee of twelve scientists, including Dr. Willard Libby, under the auspices of the United States Atomic Energy Commission, to the effect that a fall-out within these lines of latitude may be from 10 to 25 units in the next several years? In view of that danger, is the Prime Minister prepared to consider this matter?

Mr. Butler

I have examined very carefully the article in the Lancet, which includes information which was printed in a footnote to the Report of the United States Congress Joint Committee on Atomic Energy published last August. This was a forecast. The item "C", to which the hon. Member referred, mentioned the possibility of 10 to 25 strontium units if there was a predicted banding of the fall-out in the latitude of the North-Eastern United States, and the footnote used the expression, "if that occurs." It is a forecast, but it cannot be proved to be correct. The British Government are working on the advice of the Medical Research Council's Report. The present advice is that the highest strontium levels detected in bone in the United Kingdom are between 2.3 and 2.4 units. The present average figure in the United Kingdom is less than one unit and, as the Report tells us that the danger limit should not be greater than 100 strontium units and that we should not begin to get anxious before the level of 10 units, I think that we are working within the level of what is sensible on the basis of the best advice that we can get.

Mr. Bevan

As it has been said frequently that one of the dangers in this situation is not only the rise in radioactivity but the fact that other nations may themselves begin to test atomic bombs, and we would have no control whatever over the development, is it not desirable that we should now set an example ourselves so that no nations, other than those now possessing them, can have nuclear weapons; or are we to wait until the danger spreads?

Mr. Butler

No, Sir. This is one of the matters which is under urgent consideration, namely, the question of the possible banning of nuclear tests, but it really would be easier to secure agreement on measures of real disarmament, such as the control, cut-off and production of fissile material for weapon purposes. The Russians have so far refused to accept the cut-off as an essential first step in nuclear disarmament. We must make progress with that, with a view to making progress on the major important issue to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred.

Mr. Bevan

Does not that expose the Government to the charge, perfectly correctly, from the Russians, that they are asking for more than can be agreed at the moment in order to prevent agreement from being reached on first steps? Why do we not first ban these tests and, having banned them, hope that the atmosphere created by that banning will make other agreements far easier? The fact is that the record of the Government in this matter is criminal.

Mr. Butler

The right hon. Gentleman appears to be inferring that the record of this Government is worse than that of the Russian Government, and with that I certainly do not agree. The position of Her Majesty's Government is that we are perfectly sincere in desiring to reach an agreement on disarmament questions. In fact we have put forward, with the support of the whole of the Western Allies, the best disarmament plan we can possibly frame, and we hope to achieve success in the sphere to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred.

Mr. Zilliacus

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Government figures he quotes are regarded as controversial and subject to doubt by a great many scientists? For instance, he says that 100 units represent the safety limit. Is it not the fact that many scientists say that the limit is 10 units? He mentions 1 per cent. or 2 per cent. of strontium fall-out today, whereas the point is, how much will come down when the strontium carried in the air has come to earth, without any further tests? Does he not leave it to chance whether or not the scientists are correct who say that the prevailing winds will bring it down here? Is he not altogether giving the benefit of the doubt to the tests over the lives of our children?

Mr. Butler

There is a possibility of every sort of doubt about scientific advice and the Government are perfectly modest on this matter. We are, however, being guided by the best advice we can get from the Medical Research Council Reports, and at any time we can get any further advice, we shall obtain it. I can give the House only the benefit of the advice we have.

Mr. Allaun

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that our Medical Research Council has stated that if the figure of 10 units were exceeded it would require immediate review of the hazards involved in tests? Is he further aware that both the Prime Minister and the Lord President of the Council are taking 100 units, or 10 times that figure, as the danger signal? Which figure does he accept?

Mr. Butler

The difference is this. There is really a perfectly clear situation. We have been advised that the maximum permissible concentration of strontium in the bones should be regarded as 100 units, and that immediate consideration should be given if the level should rise above 10 units; so we are allowing a certain latitude of safety according to the advice we have been given.