Central Ordnance Depôt, Didcot (Hansard, 10 December 1958)

§ 29. Mr. Wigg
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will make a statement on the administration of the Central Ordnance Depôt, Didcot, having regard to the use of public stores in excess of scale in messes and offices, and the carrying out of unnecessary painting and decorating.

§ The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Christopher Soames)
I shall be glad to investigate these charges if the hon. Gentleman wishes to provide me with evidence, but, so far as I can discover, there is no substance in either of them. Routine maintenance work, including painting and decorating, has been in progress during recent months. It was properly authorised and done in accordance with the regulations.

§ Mr. Wigg
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that Answer is surprising in view of the fact that Didcot is a War Office controlled establishment, and that it is clear from the plan which I have 336 here, and which I will willingly lend the right hon. Gentleman for use in the War Office, that the officers' mess is to have its accommodation increased from 24 dining members to an establishment of 44, plus sleeping accommodation for one field officer and three junior officers, and this at a time when the over-all establishment is contracting? Is he further aware that there have been three redecorating contracts in the last eighteen months?

§ Mr. Soames
I think that in two out of the three cases the officers' mess was painted in two different stages, and a number of offices have also been painted. My information is that the decorations will not be affected by the changes to the structure of the building.

§ Mr. Wigg
Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to investigate the extension of the mess, in view of the fact that the establishment is not increasing but decreasing?

§ Mr. Soames
As the hon. Gentleman knows, I am always very ready to take up any point which he brings to my attention.

§ 30. Mr. Wigg
asked the Secretary of State for War how many horses and grooms, civilian and military, are held on the establishment of the Central Ordnance Depôt, Didcot; for what purpose they are provided; for what purpose they are used; what additional stabling has been recently built, at what cost and under what authority; how many horses are stabled and fed at public expense in excess of establishment, and by whom such animals are owned.

§ Mr. Soames
Two horses are used at Didcot for pulling refuse carts and delivering fuel. They are worked and looked after by two civilian labourers. There are no grooms on the establishment. To replace a stable which was unsafe, an old building was converted into a stable at a cost of £40. No other horses are kept at public expense.

§ Mr. Wigg
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that two animals, one called Deputy and the other called Slumber, were on the establishment for the purpose of pulling the garbage cart? These animals were put down and the Commandant made a special journey to an R.A.V.C. depôt to select two more horses, 337 Lottery and Josephine. The two horses were selected not for their capabilities of pulling the garbage cart, but for riding. Would the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to inquire about the date on which vouchers were first passed for the use of these horses? Is he also not aware—

§ Mr. Speaker
This is a very long supplementary question. Cannot the hon. Gentleman condense it a little?

§ Mr. Wigg
I am only following up the Question on the Order Paper. Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the Commandant's wife's horse is stabled on Government property and is fed at Government expense and that no vouchers have been passed? Further, is he aware that a National Service man—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to go into great detail, I think that he ought to try to obtain an Adjournment debate on the matter. Long supplementary questions take up too much of other hon. Members' time.

§ Mr. Wigg
I should long ago have completed my supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, but for the noises opposite. Am I not entitled to your protection—

§ Mr. Speaker
I will always protect the hon. Member if he requires protection, but I have to protect other hon. Members as well.

§ Mr. Wigg
Am I not entitled to your protection, Mr. Speaker, so that I can complete my supplementary question? Is not the right hon. Gentleman also aware—

§ Sir T. Moore:
On a point of order. May I move that the hon. Gentleman be no longer heard?

§ Mr. Speaker
That is not in order. I wish that the hon. Gentleman would ask his supplementary question and be done with it.

§ Mr. Wigg
I propose to do that, Mr. Speaker. Is not the right hon. Gentleman further aware that a National Service man, who was in peace time an apprentice in a racing stable, was taken from his duties to look after these horses?

§ Mr. Soames
First, I am not aware of the names of the horses. Their duties are to pull the carts and they do their 338 work excellently. I am afraid that I do not know their antecedents. As to the National Service man, there are two civilians who drive the horses and look after them. One was sick and a National Service man took his place for five months. I think that that answers the majority of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary questions.

§ Mr. Wigg
Would the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to carry out some further investigations and to make sure that these horses, which are held on the establishment to pull the garbage carts, in fact pull the garbage, including some of the hon. Members opposite?

§ 31. Mr. Wigg
asked the Secretary of State for War whether the provision of a punt for duck shooting and the shooting of pet cats to preserve pheasant shooting in the Central Ordnance Depôt was made with his authority.

§ Mr. Soames
No punt has been provided for duck shooting and no pet cats have been shot by the Army. Large ordnance depôts have to clear away at intervals the cats which live and multiply among depôt buildings, particularly those which go wild or are not looked after. They are destroyed by the R.S.P.C.A. This has been done at Didcot for many years.

§ Mr. Wigg
Is not it a fact that at least 70 cats have been destroyed and that they have been destroyed in order to protect the pheasant shooting? Is not it also a fact that a punt has been built in the depôt at public expense? Would the right hon. Gentleman care to make inquiries and to examine the work tickets? Is not it also a fact—[Interruption.] On a point of order. May I again ask for your protection, Mr. Speaker? If there were conduct such as this and if noises were made by any hon. Member on this side of the House such as are being made now by hon. Members opposite, I am quite sure that we might by this time have heard your rebuke.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. Do I understand the hon. Member to say that if the noise had been on his side of the House I should have intervened?

§ Mr. Wigg
I said that we might have heard your rebuke.

§ Mr. Speaker
I must express my resentment of any imputation that I have sides in a matter of this sort. I cannot prevent noise from being made on either side of the House. I can only ask for order and ask hon. Members to obey the rules. I have noticed no particular hon. Member on one side or the other, making a noise, whom I could call to order. The hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) must remember that if he asks for order he should maintain it.

§ Mr. Wigg
If I inadvertently made any reflection on the Chair I shall be the first to withdraw but, equally, I will not be intimidated by rowdy yahoos, whether they are in uniform or whether they wear civilian clothes and sit opposite. The question which I want to put to the right hon. Gentleman is this: will he be good enough to make inquiries to see whether in the last few weeks a punt has been built at the public expense? He can do this by examining the work tickets. Would he regard this not as a joke at a time when the efficiency of these ordnance depôts is vital to the security of this country? Will he take the necessary steps to see that at Didcot, at least, things are in order?

§ Mr. Soames
I certainly do not treat it as a joke, but I think the hon. Member has got the wrong end of the stick. For years there has been a raft on the lake to keep it clear of weeds which grow there. After those years the raft was worn out and a new punt was provided.

§ Mr. Strachey
Would not the Secretary of State agree that these perfectly reasonable questions could have been answered very easily if my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) and the Secretary of State had not been interrupted for some ten minutes by hon. Members opposite?