§ 41. Mr. Allaunasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Her Majesty's Government now contemplate reducing the embargo governing exports to China and to the countries of the Soviet bloc to one unified list.
§ The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Ian Harvey)We must first await the outcome of discussions in the China Committee, which I hope will reach an early conclusion.
§ Mr. AllaunIs it not true that American representatives are now saying that they will not obstruct the reduction of the Chinese embargo to the Russian level provided the Russian list is raised to the Chinese level, and secondly, that the Paris Group has just been given to understand that a decision must be further delayed until after the American Budget in July?
§ Mr. HarveyAs I am not a member of the Committee I do not know what American representatives have been saying, and I am not aware of any such statement as has been referred to in the second part of the supplementary question.
§ Mr. ShinwellDoes the hon. Gentleman think it a satisfactory answer for the Joint Under-Secretary to say that, because he is not a member of a Committee, he cannot give hon. Members information about what is happening in the Committee? Does he never hear anything about it? Is he kept completely in the dark?
§ Mr. HarveyThe right hon. Member must realise that a committee with a specific task to perform must be allowed to do it under the confidential arrangements which exist. It would be quite out of order for me to disclose in public, before the Committee had come to a conclusion, what discussions were going on.
§ 42. Mr. Swinglerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if, in relation to any proposals put before the Paris Consultative Group on trade restrictions with the Soviet bloc and China, he will reserve the right of Her Majesty's Government to take independent action in individual cases.
§ Mr. Ian HarveyThe right to take the final decision on matters discussed in the Consultative Group and its Committees already rests with the member Governments. There is, therefore, no need for Her Majesty's Government to make any further reservations on this point.
§ Mr. SwinglerAs it is a known fact that some of the proposals now before the Paris Consultative Group are to increase trade restrictions and not to lessen them, can we have an assurance from the Government that they will contract out of any decision or recommendations of the Paris Group that involve increasing restrictions instead of lessening them?
§ Mr. HarveyAs the Committee is an advisory one, it is a question of awaiting the advice that may be obtained. The position of Her Majesty's Government was made very clear in the debate, at which the hon. Gentleman was present, when I outlined the position just before Easter.
§ 43. Sir L. Plummerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any member of the Paris Consultative Group can exercise a right of veto on questions of trade, or whether decisions are by a majority vote.
§ Mr. Ian HarveyThe Consultative Group, as the name implies, is an advisory body. No questions of veto or majority vote arise at it.
§ Sir L. PlummerCan the Minister give the House one single instance in which we have taken a decision contrary to that recommended to us by the Consultative Committee; or are we bound always to accept everything that this advisory body presents to us?
§ Mr. HarveyThat is quite another question.
§ Mr. ShinwellHow long has this Consultative Committee been consulting, how long will it go on consulting, and when is it likely to stop consulting and give us a decision?
§ Mr. HarveyThe right hon. Gentleman must, I think, allow committees to carry out the duties that are given to them. As the right hon. Gentleman well knows, this is a point upon which there is a degree of difficulty, and I think it no bad thing that considerable detail should be attended to in arriving at conclusions.
§ Mr. HarveyI cannot give the exact period; but that does not arise on this question.
§ Mr. S. SilvermanAbout five years.
§ Mr. HarveyIt is, in fact, about that time.
§ Mr. BevanIs it not correct that it is more than 67 weeks since this was raised in remarks from all sides of the House— from that side, this side and down below the Gangway.
§ Mr. LiptonWhich side are we on?
§ Mr. BevanThere are some hon. Gentlemen who occupy an equivocal position in the House. Anxiety was expressed that we should have some clarity on this matter and some relaxation of the list, but it seems a very slow business.
§ Mr. HarveyI think that the right hon. Gentleman was away on his tour when this matter was discussed. The position is perfectly clear. We have already received a very clear indication 632 of the view of the American Government. We are giving it the attention it deserves, and in due course a decision will be reached.
Mr. DugdaleLast week I asked the Prime Minister whether there had been any consultation with the Commonwealth about this matter. I put a Question down to the Prime Minister today, but I understand that as he is going abroad he would prefer not to come to the House to answer it. May I, therefore, ask the Minister whether he will now tell me whether there have been consultations with the Commonwealth countries on this important subject?
§ Mr. HarveyThis does not arise on the Question that I have been asked. I cannot he expected, without notice, to answer Questions addressed to the Prime Minister.
§ Mr. PagetIs it the position of this Committee that it cannot give advice unless we agree to the advice, and does that account for the fact that we generally take the advice?
§ Mr. HarveyNo, Sir.
§ Mr. ShinwellCannot the Joint Under-Secretary ask his right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to give him the information so that, in turn, he can give us the information?
§ Mr. HarveyMy right hon. and learned Friend, like myself, has some regard for the confidential nature of this Committee; and we shall adhere to it.
Mr. DugdaleWho has this information? The Prime Minister, apparently, is unaware of it; the Joint Under-Secretary is unaware of it. May I ask to whom one may apply to get this information?
§ Mr. HarveyThe information is of a confidential nature and, therefore, it will not be disclosed in public by me or anyone else.
§ Mr. S. SilvermanIs the Minister aware that the imposition of these strategic restrictions was occasioned by the Korean War, that the Korean War has been over for six years, and that the Committee has had this matter of the restrictions under continuous review for the whole of that time?
§ Mr. HarveyI am well aware of all those points. It does not in any way alter the Answer that I have already given.
§ 44. Sir L. Plummerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when the China Committee of the Paris Consultative Group will be meeting to discuss the relaxation of the embargo on the export of goods to China.
§ 56. Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when the China Committee of the Paris Consultative Group met to consider the United States terms for a relaxation of the embargo on the export of British goods to China.
§ Mr. Ian HarveyThe China Committee will meet this week to discuss the relaxation of the China trade controls. I cannot, however, give the dates of meetings of the Committee as this would be contrary to our commitments as a member of the Consultative Group.
§ Sir L. PlummerWill the Minister consider giving instructions to our delegate to move that the Committee sits in permanent session until a decision is taken in the interests of British trade and British traders? Will he make quite clear to British traders that the deliberations of this body are confidential? They ought to be public to British traders, who want to get on with the business of supplying the goods that China needs.
§ Mr. HarveyThese matters were discussed in this House at some length just before Easter. We are perfectly satisfied that our representative on the Committee is fully aware of the position, and we shall await the conclusions of the Committee in due course.
§ Mr. H. MorrisonAre we to take it that the Joint Under-Secretary has strict instructions not to give the House any information if he can possibly help it? Are those his instructions? If that is so, would it not be better if he were frank and told the House that he is not going to say anything?
§ Mr. HarveyI think that I made it reasonably clear that that is the position I am occupying—that the Committee is discussing a matter in private and, contrary to whatever views the right hon. Gentleman may have about this method 634 of discussion, it is not desirable that I should give information before the Committee has completed its discussions.
§ 47. Mr. Roy Jenkinsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how far the proposals received recently from the United States Government on the strategic controls on British trade envisage any change in the list of permitted exports to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
§ Mr. Ian HarveyDetails of the United States proposals are as yet confidential, and I should prefer not to comment at this stage. The proposals are intended, however, to deal with trade with China.
§ Mr. JenkinsCannot the Minister at least give us an assurance that the Government are not at this stage contemplating any increase in restrictions?
§ Mr. HarveyYes, Sir.