HC Deb 29 July 1957 vol 574 cc842-7
3. Mr. Healey

asked the Minister of Supply how many workers at the Royal Ordnance factory, Barnbow, will be made redundant in the next three, six and twelve months, respectively.

Mr. Aubrey Jones

I expect some reduction in the level of employment at this factory during the next twelve months, but I cannot at present say when and on what scale redundancy will occur.

Mr. Healey

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this news will be received with great dismay throughout the area from which this factory draws workers? Is he further aware that this redundancy culminates 30 per cent. redundancy in the factory over the last three years, and that this would be quite unnecessary if the Minister were prepared to carry out the undertaking to make Royal Ordnance factories a preferred source for the production of conventional armaments?

Mr. Jones

I should have thought that my statement would have been received with the very opposite of dismay. One of the reasons why I cannot at this moment declare what the extent of redundancy will be in this factory is that this factory depends on export orders, and no one can foresee exactly where and when export orders will arise. For the rest, I can only reiterate that it is my policy, which has been faithfully carried out, to make Royal Ordnance factories a preferred source of the arms they are equipped to produce.

4. Mr. Healey

asked the Minister of Supply to what extent it is his policy that the Royal Ordnance factories should be encouraged to tender for foreign arms contracts.

Mr. Aubrey Jones

I am anxious to ensure that foreign arms contracts shall make as large a contribution as possible to the maintenance of employment at the retained Royal Ordnance factories and the factories will be regarded as a preferred source for foreign arms orders secured by Her Majesty's Government in exactly the same way as Service orders.

Mr. Healey

In that case, can the right hon. Gentleman explain why at the present time a private company is making profits which should be going to the taxpayers by sub-contracting to the Royal Ordnance factory at Barnbow a large part of the Swiss arms order which the Government themselves could easily have obtained several years ago, since the Royal Ordnance factories are capable of producing these tanks at least 20 per cent. cheaper than any private firm?

Mr. Jones

Yes, because it is part of the Swiss convention of neutrality, if not of their neutrality laws, that orders for arms should be placed not with foreign Governments but with firms. In this instance, the order was placed with a firm. The firm placed half the order with the Royal Ordnance factory. I should have thought that a solution eminently acceptable to the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Healey

Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any details about the money which the firm is making by acting as a middleman between a foreign Government and the Ministry?

Mr. Jones

Had it not been for this firm's acting as a middleman this order would not have been secured by this country at all.

5. Dr. Stross

asked the Minister of Supply what was the expenditure at Swynnerton Royal Ordnance factory during 1956 on maintenance work; and how many workers outside the factory were employed.

Mr. Aubrey Jones

£645,315. The average number of outside workers employed was 70.

Dr. Stross

Would the Minister give us an assurance that maintenance work, some of which obviously must be continued or the factory will become derelict and not even be saleable, so far as possible will be done by men and women who are working in the factory itself rather than by outside contractors?

Mr. Jones

In so far as it is possible, yes. As a matter of fact, 80 per cent. of the maintenance work now being done is being done by workers internal to the factory.

6. Dr. Stross

asked the Minister of Supply whether he will give the average age of men and women employees at the Royal Ordnance factory, Swynnerton, and the number who have at any time during their employment suffered from dermatitis or other diseases directly following their employment.

Mr. Aubrey Jones

The average age of the men and women employed at the factory is 49 and 42, respectively. As regards the second part of the Question, full information is not readily available, but 250 cases of dermatitis or other occupational diseases have occurred since 1950.

Dr. Stross

Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that the average age of these men and women is rather high and that this makes it more difficult for them to find alternative employment if and when they are declared redundant, and that, in addition to that, there is a prejudice against people who have suffered from dermatitis, a prejudice both by their fellow workers and by other employers, and due in part to ignorance? Will the right hon. Gentleman, therefore, give special consideration to those who have so suffered?

Mr. Jones

Yes, these are both difficulties of which I am very conscious and which the Minister of Labour also has in mind.

7. Dr. Stross

asked the Minister of Supply what compensation is to be paid to workers in Royal Ordnance factory installations when they are declared redundant.

11. Mr. Swingler

asked the Minister of Supply what compensation will be offered to those workers who are made redundant at Royal Ordnance factories as a result of cuts in the defence programme.

Mr. Aubrey Jones

I would refer the hon. Members to the reply riven to the hon. Member for Newton (Mr. Lee)on 6th June.

Dr. Stross

Has the Minister noted that the amount of compensation appears to be very little compared with the quite rightly generous treatment which has been meted out to Regulars in the Forces who are now to be dispensed with, and that after five years' work the compensation gratuity to these people is five weeks wages? Does he not think it is abominably low?

Mr. Jones

One must not, of course, compare like with unlike. In the Services, one is terminating contracts of service. In the Royal Ordnance factories, one is not terminating contracts of service of established workers. As for the non-established, the rate of gratuity was established only recently under the Superannuation Act, and I do not think the point now being made by the hon. Gentleman was made then.

Mr. Swingler

Would not the Minister reconsider this decision now in the light of the Government's White Paper about compensation to those made redundant in the Armed Forces? Is he not aware that many of the workers in these factories have given long years of service involving considerable danger to their health, and, in time of warfare, considerable danger to their lives? There are certain comparable factors here. Will he not, therefore, reconsider the whole question?

Mr. Jones

Yes, but surely the relevant question is whether or not the rates of gratuity are comparable to those in comparable industrial organisations. I think that they are.

Mr. Shinwell

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the rate of gratuity for redundancy in Royal Ordnance factories is not comparable with the rate of gratuity or compensation in the mining industry?

Mr. Jones

I should not like to answer that without notice, but I have gone into the comparison with the normal industrial firm and, in the normal industrial firm, I do not think there is any very great difference.

10. Mrs. Slater

asked the Minister of Supply what consideration has been given to the employment of persons on general maintenance work, who would otherwise become redundant at the Royal Ordnance factory, Swynnerton.

Mr. Aubrey Jones

The factory has for some time employed surplus production workers on essential maintenance work and will continue to do so for as long as necessary. Work of this kind will, however, require only limited numbers.

Mrs. Slater

While thanking the Minister for that reply, and the one which he gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross)a moment ago, may I ask him again to be very careful to see that as many as possible of these people who will otherwise become redundant are at least found work on mainteance in the factory, especially in view of the difficulty of their obtaining alternative employment in the north Staffordshire area?

Mr. Jones

Yes, and there will, of course, be quite a protracted period of decontamination of this factory that will require the employment of a proportion of the total labour force now employed.

12. Mr. Swingler

asked the Minister of Supply what consultations he has had with representatives of trade unions since the announcement of the decision to close the Swynnerton Royal Ordnance factory; and if he will give an assurance that redundancies will not be created until a scheme has been agreed with the trade unions.

Mr. Aubrey Jones

There have been discussions with trade union representatives both at factory level and, within the last few days, with the Ministry of Supply Joint Industrial Council, to which my hon. Friend referred in his reply of 8th July. There is already an agreement on redundancy procedure between my Department and the trade unions.

Mr. Swingler

Will the Minister give a categorical assurance that no scheme will be implemented until an agreement has been reached with the local representatives of the trade unions at the Swynnerton factory?

Mr. Jones

The hon. Gentleman is always asking me for categorical assurances, but in this case there is a redundancy agreement which relates to all the factories. Swynnerton is no exception.

Mr. Robens

Would the right hon. Gentleman tell us what is to be the future finally of the Swynnerton factory?

Mr. Jones

As I indicated a fortnight or so ago, I think it was, I am endeavouring to dispose of all the factories no longer required for defence to industrial firms.

Sir A. V. Harvey

Can my right hon. Friend confirm that the real problem of this factory is that, having been a gunpowder factory, it cannot be turned over to other useful industrial employment? Is not that the real problem?

Mr. Jones

Yes, that is a problem. I think the problem of this factory is that no matter to what purpose it may be devoted it is relatively an uneconomical factory.

Dr. Stross

The Minister has just advised us that he is handing these factories over to other industrial concerns, but does he not remember that at West Kirby it was the local authority which took over the whole of the site and made a great success of it? Would he, therefore, consider approaching the county council and the Stoke City Council to treat this site in a similar way?

Mr. Jones

Gladly.