HC Deb 11 July 1957 vol 573 cc593-603

Lords Amendment: In page 45, line 43, leave out "(4)".

Mr. Renton

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This is an Amendment which makes various adaptations and amendments, including some to the Electricity Act, 1947. Section 3 (4) of that Act disqualifies Members of Parliament from being members of the Central Electricity Authority or its area boards. The House of Commons Disqualification Act has recently repealed Section 3 (4) of the Electricity Act, 1947. It is, therefore, right that we should also repeal it here.

However, in this connection I should invite the attention of hon. Members to page 50 of the Bill as it went to the House of Lords on 9th April, in which we find that the House of Commons Disqualification Act, 1957, is also amended, and amended in such a way as to substitute for "the Central Authority" "the Central Electricity Generating Board" and the Electricity Council". So we now arrive at the position at which it will be impossible for Members of this House to be members of the Electricity Council or any of its electricity boards.

Sir F. Soskice

I hope that this is an instance in which the effect of the House of Commons Disqualification Act, 1957, will be salutary in clearing up various ambiguities in the law relating to disqualification with which that Act set out to deal. I am a little dismayed, however, to find that, while the provision we seek to remove is rendered unnecessary because of the House of Commons Disqualification Act, the Bill itself amends that Act. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman proposes to remove from the Bill, or has already removed, the provision in which it amends the House of Commons Disqualification Act. I do not think he told the House that, but presumably he has done so.

Mr. Renton

I speak again by leave of the House. The House of Commons Disqualification Act, 1957, is amended in the Third Schedule and on page 50 of the Bill. I think it was right for the House of Commons Disqualification Act to be passed irrespective of what might be enacted by Parliament in this Bill, which had not been enacted by the time that Act was passed, and for the Bill, now it is to be passed, to amend the House of Commons Disqualification Act. I understand that the usual procedure which pertains when we have two Bills going through the House in one Session and to some very minor extent they overlap has, in fact, been followed in this case. Nothing unusual is being done, but the whole thing is being tidied up in this way.

5.30 p.m.

Mr. C. R. Hobson

My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Newport (Sir F. Soskice) has raised a very important point. It is very difficult for laymen to follow these legal arguments between counsel across the Floor of the House. The point about which I am concerned and on which I should like some elucidation, either from my right hon. and learned Friend or from the Minister, is whether this means that a consequential alteration will have to be made to the House of Commons Disqualification Act. Will that Act have to be amended?

Mr. Renton

I do not wish to pursue the point, but I am being pressed about it and, with the leave of the House, I wish to help. The House of Commons Disqualification Act, 1957, has already received the Royal Assent, and when this Bill receives the Royal Assent that Act will be amended by the words on page 50 at the end of the Third Schedule.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In page 46, line 28. at end insert:

Section 21 In subsection (3), for the words "Central Authority" there shall be substituted the words "Electricity Council".
Section 33 In subsection (4), for the words "Central Authority" there shall be substituted the words "Electricity Council".

Mr. Maudling

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This is a tidying up Amendment which deals with two matters which, I can assure the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. C. R. Hobson), were considered in Committee. The two Sections of the principal Act which we propose to amend are Sections 21 and 33. Section 21 appointed stockholders' representatives at the time of nationalisation to represent stockholders entitled to compensation, and provided that they should be paid by the Crown and that the money should be recovered from the Central Authority. It appears to be true, although rather surprising, that all possible claims under the nationalisation Act have not yet been exhausted, and it is possible that further money will have to be provided by the Crown to meet the expenses of stockholders' representatives. This money will clearly have to be reimbursed to the Crown in the future by the Electricity Council, which will be in existence after the vesting date in the Bill, when the Central Authority has ceased to exist.

Section 33 is similar in that subsection (4) provides for the payment of allowances, pay and expenses to the Electricity Arbitration Tribunal which was set up under the nationalisation Act to determine disputes arising from the nationalisation of undertakings. I understand that some matters are still outstanding between the Central Authority and the local authorities for which arbitration may be necessary, and if the arbitration tribunal is to be reconvened, which is possible, the Electricity Council will be the proper body to reimburse the Minister for the tribunal's expenses, since the Central Authority will not be in a position to do so after the passage of the Bill.

Mr. C. R. Hobson

This is a shocking business. On two occasions this afternoon privileges of the Commons have been broken by another place. I cannot understand why Government spokesmen in the other place are so badly briefed, or are not informed by those responsible for informing them that the Money Resolution is not adequate—because I take it from the Minister's statement that this is precisely what is meant here. I hope that we shall not have many repetitions of this sort of thing.

It is true that one is present when Lords Amendments are being considered only if one is particularly interested in the Measure; that is the general way in which hon. Members conduct themselves. Nevertheless, I speak with over twelve years' membership of the House, and I think this is the only occasion which I can remember on which the privileges of the Commons have been broken by the Lords twice in one series of Amendments. I am not blaming them, for they are trying to get their own way, but I am complaining somewhat bitterly that there is not sufficient co-ordination between the Minister and right hon. and hon. Members opposite in pointing out that there is not enough money in the Money Resolution to cover the point under consideration.

If certain concessions are to be made, we shall have Bills put up to a sort of Dutch auction and the highest bidder will get what he wants. Are we to have a state of affairs on the Budget in which, when he has a surplus, the Chancellor of the Exchequer says, "All right boys. I shall be distributing largesse to the tune of £50 million"?

This is a case in which the Money Resolution has not been adequate. I think it points to very bad co-ordination, and I make my protest.

Question put and agreed to. [Special Entry.]

Lords Amendment: In page 48, line 13, at end insert: Third Schedule In paragraph 5 of Part I, and in paragraph 2, and sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 5, of Part II, for the words 'Central Authority', in each place where they occur, there shall be substituted the words 'Electricity Council'; and in subparagraph (2) of paragraphs 5 of Part II, the words by the Central Authority' shall be omitted, and after the words in respect of any securities' there shall be inserted the words whether by the Central Authority or by the Electricity Council'.

Mr. Maudling

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

The Third Schedule of the principal Act, with which we are concerned here, deals with the issue of compensation stock at nationalisation. Once again, rather surprisingly, it is true that there is still a small amount of compensation stock which has not been allocated, the reason being that people entitled to it have not been identified. Adaptations are required in the Schedule to transfer to the Electricity Council certain functions of the Central Authority about compensation stock. This is in line with what has already been decided in principle by the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In page 48, line 40, at end insert:

The Electric Lighting Act, 1882

In the provisions of section eighteen of the Gasworks Clauses Act, 1847, incorporated with the said Act of 1882 by virtue of section twelve thereof, the words from "or shall supply any other person" to the words "by the Undertakers", and the words "or such supply furnished", shall be omitted.

Mr. Renton

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

I suggest, if it is convenient, that we should take at the same time the next Amendment, in line 43. The two go together.

Mr. C. R. Hobson

Is this again a breach of privilege?

Mr. Renton

These two Amendments are consequential to Clause 28 (5) of the Bill, which deals with the fixing of maximum charges for reselling electricity, and the need for the Amendments arises in this way: Section 18 of the Gasworks Clauses Act, 1847 provides penalties for misusing gas supplied by gas undertakings. That Section of the 1847 Act was applied to the misuse of electricity by Section 12 of the Electric Lighting Act, 1882, but with the adaptations that "gas" meant "electricity" and that "gas pipe" meant "electric lines". The two Acts between them are among the legislative fossils with which we have to contend from time to time, but of which we have to take notice because, although they seem to be fossils, they are still alive.

The 1882 Act, as read with the 1847 Act, made it illegal to resell electricity, whereas in the Bill we are making it legal to resell electricity subject to certain conditions. We therefore have to remove the legislative provisions which make it illegal to do so.

The first of these Amendments, to line 40, deletes the obsolete words from Section 18 of the 1847 Act and the second Amendment, in line 43, which can be understood only by referring to the Bill as well as to the Lords Amendments, if I may respectfully say so, deletes the now superfluous words from the Appendix to the Electric Lighting Act, 1882. I should point out that we have a most extraordinary legislative position in that provisions of the Gasworks Clauses Act,1847, as amended and amplified by the Electric Lighting Act, 1882, are embodied in the Electric Lighting (Clauses) Act. 1899, so that we have double legislation.

Therefore, by these Amendments we have to correct the same piece of legislation, which occurs in two different places, and to do it twice. I have been into this, and I can assure the right hon. and learned Gentleman that the object has been achieved.

Sir F. Soskice

I rise only to express the grateful thanks of, I think, hon. Members on both sides, to the Minister for his fascinating and enthralling discourse. What I cannot understand is how the profound truths that he has enunciated managed to escape the vigilance of all of us during the Committee stage. I think that we should all come forward in a white sheet and apologise.

Question put and agreed to.

Further Lords Amendment made: In page 48, line 43, at end insert: and, in the Appendix, the provisions of section eighteen of the Gasworks Clauses Act, 1847, therein set out shall be modified in accordance with the last preceding provisions of this Part of this Schedule."—[Mr. Renton.]

Lords Amendment: In page 48, line 46, at end insert: after the words 'district in which the land is situate' there shall be inserted the words 'to the local planning authority (within the meaning of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947) in whose area that land is situate', and after the words 'such local authority' there shall be inserted the words 'local planning authority'.

Mr. Maudling

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

It might be for the convenience of the House if, with this Amendment, we took that in line 48.

These two Amendments are consequential on the adoption of the new Clause dealing with the construction or extension of a generating station. The House has already agreed this afternoon to the new Clause, which will provide that when application is made to construct or extend a generating station, notice shall be given, not only to the local authority but to the local planning authority. The first Amendment applies that, consequential, to the 1909 Act. The second, which is, as I say, also consequential, makes the necessary adaptation for Scotland.

Question put and agreed to.

Further Lords Amendment made: In page 48, line 48, after "schemes" insert: and with the substitution, for the reference to the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, of a reference to the Town and Country Planing (Scotland) Act, 1947".—[Mr. Maudling.]

Lords Amendment: In page 49, line 11, at end insert: In section ten A, in subsection (1), for the words 'Electricity Act, 1947', there shall be substituted the words 'Electricity Act, 1957'",

Mr. Renton

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This Amendment is consequential on that in page 10, line 26, dealing with the supply of electricity to the railways.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In page 50, line 7, at end insert: In section ninety-seven, in subsection (1), after the words British Electricity Authority', there shall be inserted the words or the Electricity Council'".

Mr. Renton

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

Under the Local Government Act, 1948, the Central Electricity Authority has been paying the rates on behalf of the electricity boards to the Minister of Housing and Local Government, and the Minister of Housing and Local Government receives them on behalf of local authorities, and various adjustments are subsequently made. In future, the Electricity Council will make these payments, after the Central Electricity Authority has been dissolved, so that a reference to the Electricity Council is required. That is what the Amendment does.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In page 50, line 21, at end insert:

The Gas and Electricity (Borrowing Powers)

Act, 1954

In section one, for the words 'the said Act', there shall be substituted the words that Act'.

Mr. Renton

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

I suggest that this Amendment could be taken with that in page 51, line 35.

By the 1954 Gas and Electricity (Borrowing Powers) Act, various limits were set to the borrowing by electricity and gas boards on capital account, but by Clause 14 (5) of this Bill a new limit of £1,400 million in aggregate outstanding has been set. The provisions of the 1954 Act, therefore, have become unnecessary, and the effect of these two Amendments will be to remove the nationalised electricity industry generally from the effect of the 1954 Act.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In page 50, line 21, after the Amendment last inserted, insert:

The Electricity Reorganisation (Scotland) Act, 1954

In section twelve, in subsection (1), after the words transfer; and' there shall be inserted the words 'subject to the next following subsection' and at the end of that subsection there shall be added the following subsection—

  1. '(1A) Where any regulations made under subsection (1) of this section provide for appeals to be brought as mentioned in paragraph (b) of subsection (5) of the said section fifty-five, the referee or board of referees on any such appeal may, and if so directed by the Court of Session shall, state a case for the opinion of that Court on any question of law arising in the proceedings.'

5.45 p.m.

The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Niall Macpherson)

I beg to move, That this House cloth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

The purpose of the Amendment is to give to employees of Scottish electricity boards rights of appeal similar to those conferred by this Bill on employees of the Central Authority and the area boards. Clause 26 empowers the Minister to make regulations to compensate officers of the Central Authority and of area boards who suffer loss as a result of the operation of the Bill.

In accordance with Section 55 (5) (b) of the 1947 Act, where an appeal about such compensation is taken to a referee or board of referees there is no appeal from the decision of such a referee or board of referees, but, as the result of a proposal of the hon. Member for Cleveland (Mr. Palmer), Clause 26 (4) of the Bill now provides that in England and Wales there may be an appeal, on a point of law, to the High Court from the decision of a referee or board of referees.

It seems right, therefore, that a similar right should be conferred on officers of electricity boards who have suffered loss through the operation of the Electricity Reorganisation (Scotland) Act, 1954. Section 12 of that Act provides machinery for compensating such persons, hut makes no provision for an appeal, and this Amendment is designed to give a similar right of appeal on a question of law to the Court of Session.

Since the reorganisation provisions of this Bill do not affect Scotland, they will not give rise to compensation claims in Scotland, but this Scottish Amendment concerns only claims that may arise as a consequence of the Scottish reorganisation brought about by the Act of 1954. It is considered proper that we should give the same right of appeal under that Act.

Mr. Palmer

I am sure that employees of the electricity supply industry in the South of Scotland will be grateful to the Government for bringing forward this Amendment in another place; and that we are grateful to the Joint Under-Secretary for his explanation. As he says, the Bill does not concern Scotland, as Scottish electricity now runs more or less on its own.

The hon. Gentleman has referred to the Electricity Reorganisation (Scotland) Act. I think that it is true that the compensation provisions in that Act run for a 10-year period, but there is, of course, another very important part of Scotland—so I am told—in the Highlands, which is looked after for electricity supply purposes by the Hydro-Electric Board. Perhaps I should have given the hon. Gentleman some notice of this, but I think that those compensation provisions are still in force. I do not think that they have run out, though I speak from memory.

If this advantage is to be extended, very properly and very generously, to electricity employees who may be adversely affected by the working out of the Electricity Reorganisation (Scotland) Act, 1954—a Measure given approval, perhaps, before the present Bill was thought of—is there not some logic in the suggestion that a similar opportunity should be given to electricity employees in the North of Scotland. I shall be very grateful if the Joint Under-Secretary would promise, at least, to look at that point, if there is time.

Mr. Macpherson

If I may speak again, with the leave of the House, I will willingly look at the point. My recollection is that there is really no cause, after such a lapse of years, to make similar provisions in that case, but, if there seems that there is any such cause, we will certainly consider it.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In line 25, at end insert:

The Rating and Valuation Act, 1957

In section two, after the words "Central Electricity Authority", in each place where they occur, there shall be inserted the words "or the Electricity Council"; and any reference in that section to any provisions of the Local Government Act, 1948, shall be construed as a reference to those provisions as amended by the preceding provisions of this Part of this Schedule.

Mr. Renton

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

I was explaining just now how the Electricity Council will, in future, make the global payments in lieu of rates on behalf of the old electricity industry under the Local Government Act, 1948, but a slight complication is introduced by the fact that, under Section 2 of the Rating and Valuation Act, 1957, passed earlier in this Session, the Central Electricity Authority is obliged to make the payments in respect of this financial year. It will, in fact, make the payments for this financial year before the vesting date. These payments are made half-yearly, in July and in December, so that, so far as this financial year is concerned, we have no need to worry; it is all perfectly well arranged already.

We must, however, amend Section 2 of the Rating and Valuation Act, 1957, in order to include references to the Electricity Council so as to straighten the matter out for future years, and also in order to make it clear that the references in the 1957 Rating and Valuation Act to the Local Government Act, 1948, are references to that Act as amended, that is to say, by this Bill. That is done by this Amendment, which will be an Amendment to the Third Schedule, in page 50, and the insertion will come before the House of Commons Disqualification Act.

Question put and agreed to.