HC Deb 04 April 1957 vol 568 cc634-8
Mr. Maudling

I beg to move, in page 33, line 26, at the end, to insert:

Machinery for settling employment conditions 2.—(1) This paragraph applies to any agreement entered into by the Central Authority under section fifty-three of the principal Act (which made provision for purposes similar to those of section ten of this Act), being an agreement which is in force immediately before the vesting date. (2) Any such agreement relating to any class of employed persons

  1. (a) shall continue in operation on and after the vesting date until it is superseded by an agreement made in relation to that class of persons under the corresponding provisions of section ten of this Act, and
  2. (b) while it so continues in operation. shall, subject to the following provisions of this paragraph, have effect, in relation to any time on or after the vesting date, as if the Electricity Council had been a party to the agreement and as if references in the agreement to the Central Authority were references to the Electricity Council.
(3) In so far as any agreement to which this paragraph applies provides for the constitution of a national organisation (that is to say, a council or other organisation whose functions under the agreement extend to the whole of Great Britain or the whole of England and Wales), the agreement shall have effect, in relation to any time on or after the vesting date, subject to the following provisions, that is to say,—
  1. (a) any power for the Central Authority to appoint members of the organisation to represent the Authority generally shall be construed as a power for the Electricity Council to appoint members to represent the Council; and any member of the organisation so appointed by the Central Authority shall be treated as if he had been appointed by the Electricity Council to represent the Council;
  2. (b) any other power for the Central Authority to appoint a member of the organisation shall be construed as if it were a power for the Electricity Council to appoint such a member, and as if ann., reference in that power to a division of the Authority were a reference to the corresponding division of the Generating Board; and any member of the organisation appointed by the Central Authority in the exercise of such a power shall he treated as if he had been appointed by the Electricity Council in the exercise of that power as modified by this provision
 (4) In so far as any agreement to which this paragraph applies provides for the constitution of an organisation other than a national organisation. the agreement shall have effect, in relation to any time on or after the vesting date, subject to the following provisions, that is to say,
  1. (a) any power for the Central Authority. or a division of the Central Authority, to appoint any members of the organisation shall be construed as a power for the Generating Board, or the corresponding division of the Generating Board, as the case may be, to appoint those members;
  2. (b) any members of the organisation appointed by the Central Authority, or a division of the Central Authority, shall be treated as if they had been appointed by the Generating Board. or the corresponding division of the Generating Board, as the case may be.
 (5) It shall be the duty of the Generating Board and of each of the Area Boards to comply with any agreement to which this paragraph applies, while it continues in operation in accordance with this paragraph. (6) Subsection (1) of section twenty-four of this Act shall not apply to any agreement to which this paragraph applies. This Amendment is proposed in pursuance of an undertaking which I gave during the Committee stage in response to points which were put, very rightly, from the other side of the Committee. The position is that the whole question of machinery for settling wages and terms of conditions of work, joint consultation, and so on, was settled by Section 53 of the principal Act; and Clause 10 of the Bill contains the necessary adaptation of the principal Act to bring it in line with current conditions —that is, the substitution of the Council for the Central Electricity Authority.

In Committee, the point was raised by the hon. Member for Cleveland (Mr. Palmer) that there might be doubt about the transitional provisions. The point of the Schedule is to make it quite clear that existing machinery continues until any change is made under Clause 10 of the Bill. I think I shall be in order in saying that in drafting the Amendment we have had the benefit of the advice both of the Central Authority and of the relevant trade union representatives. It should be satisfactory to all concerned.

Mr. Palmer

Once again, we are grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for making this change, which we suggested, and we are quite certain that the trade unions also will be grateful.

Amendmeat agreed to.

Mr. Renton

I beg to move, in page 37, line 14, at the end, to insert:

Activities and expenses of Electricity Council and Generating Board before vesting date

12.—(1) Notwithstanding anything contained in subsection (3) of section thirty-five of this Act, subsection (5) of section two of the principal Act and subsections (1), (6). (7) and (8) of section three of that Act, as amended respectively by Part I of the Third Schedule to this Act shall have effect in relation to the Generating Board as from the establishment of that Board:

Provided that nothing in this sub-paragraph shall affect the operation of those subsections in relation to the Central Authority.

(2) In respect of any expenses incurred or to be incurred by the Electricity Council or the Generating Board before the vesting date, the Council or Board, as the case may be, may require the Central Authority to make such payments to them as the Council or Board may certify to he necessary for meeting any such expenses.

(3) All payments made by the Central Authority in accordance with the last preceding sub-paragraph shall be charged to the revenue account of the Authority for the financial year ending on the thirty-first day of December, nineteen hundred and fifty-seven.

(4) All expenses incurred by the Electricity Council or the Generating Board before the vesting date shall. for the purposes of the accounts of the Council or Board, be treated as expenses incurred in the first financial year of the Council or Board; and all sums received by the Electricity Council or the Generating Board by virtue of sub-paragraph (2) of this paragraph shall be treated for those purposes as receipts attributable to that financial year.

This addition to the Second Schedule is needed to ensure that the Electricity Council and the Generating Board are able to do whatever they need to do before vesting date in preparation for taking over from the Central Authority. There will be a period of negotiation between the Electricity Council and the Generating Board which will be appointed soon after the Bill is passed. To enable them to carry out their work properly, they will have to be able to incur expenses. pay their officers, and so on. That is the purpose of the Amendment.

This is how it will work out. Subparagraph (1) ensures that the adaptations made by the Bill in Section 2 (5) of the 1947 Act, which is the subsection enabling the Board to do anything to facilitate the proper performance of its duties; in Section 3 (1), which deals with the incorporation of electricity boards; in Section 3 (6), which deals with the payment of Board members' salaries, and in Section 3 (7) and (8), which enable regulations to be made governing the appointments and procedure of the Board, shall apply to the Generating Board from the date of its appointment.

With regard to sub-paragraph (2), the Electricity Council and the Generating Board are allowed to indent upon the Central Electricity Authority between the passing of the Bill and the vesting date for such funds as they may certify to be necessary for meeting their expenses. Sub-paragraphs (3) and (4) lay down in detail the manner in which these payments are to be accounted for by the C.E.A., the Electricity Council and the Generating Board.

Mr. C. R. Hobson

We have had a very interesting explanation from the Parliamentary Secretary of the need to pay these people while the transfer of power is taking place. I have read very carefully the Financial Resolution and I am wondering to what extent the proposed Amendment is in order. The Financial Resolution appeared to be fairly tightly drawn. I should like an explanation as a matter of principle, and I should like to have the relevant part of the Financial Resolution drawn to our attention in justification of what the Parliamentary Secretary is now contemplating.

Mr. Renton

The moneys concerned here will not be coming out of public funds in the strict sense of the word Lind therefore no Financial Resolution is necessary. We need a Financial Resolution when any charge is made upon the Exchequer or upon the public purse, but that does not include the funds of nationalised industries. That is why the matter is in order although it is not covered by the Financial Resolution.

Mr. Hobson

Does that mean that there will be no payment out of the Consolidated Fund?

Mr. Renton

There will be no payment out of the Consolidated Fund in respect of these expenses, which are expenses of the industry. They will be paid by the industry.

Amendment agreed to.