HC Deb 07 May 1956 vol 552 cc961-72

10.0 p.m.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. John Profumo)

I beg to move, in page 1, line 14, at the end, to insert: (3) Before the Minister makes an order bringing this Act into operation at an airport, he shall satisfy himself that arrangements have been made for affording reasonable facilities on licensed premises within the said examination station on the airport for obtaining hot and cold beverages other than intoxicating liquor at all times when intoxicating liquor is obtainable on those premises, and if it appears to him that at any airport where this Act is in operation such arrangements are not being maintained, he shall revoke the order in force as respects that airport; but this subsection shall be without prejudice to his power of making a further order with respect to that airport. The Amendment is consequential upon an undertaking I gave in Committee, when it was obvious that many hon. Members felt there was a requirement that at all times when alcoholic beverages were being served out of hours there should also be available throughout that period non-alcoholic beverages, both hot and cold. The Amendment gives effect to what hon. Members wished, and I am glad that we have been able to meet their views.

Mr. Emrys Hughes (South Ayrshire)

I should like to know from the Minister exactly what is meant by "reasonable facilities". Does it mean reasonable prices also? There is a grievance at the airport restaurant at Prestwick that very high prices are charged for cups of tea by the hotel proprietor. We understand that considerable profit is made at Prestwick from the unfortunate people who have to wait there during international flights, and we would like to know whether the "reasonable facilities" includes the selling of cups of tea at 2s. a time.

If we do not wish to insult international travellers by not providing them with in toxicating liquor, we are not entitled to insult them by charging very high prices for cups of tea and coffee. Scotland at present has a quite unjustified reputation in certain ways, and I suggest that it is far more of an insult to an international traveller to offer him cups of tea and coffee at extortionate prices than not to sell intoxicating liquor. Can the Minister give an assurance that reasonable prices will be included in these "reasonable facilities"?

Mr. C. W. Gibson (Clapham)

I do not wish to detain the House very long, but it needs to be made quite clear that this minor Amendment was pressed for by hon. Members on this side of the House. For all that, it does not please any of us in the least that the Bill is still being pushed through. It does not make it any more acceptable that what I call the compromise set-up in connection with the liquor interests should be increased. as the Bill increases it by reason' of the fact that people can also get a cup) of tea or coffee while drinking their whisky outside permitted hours. That is the gravamen of our opposition to the Bill.

It has been admitted that there might occasionally be a teetotaller travelling in an aircraft who might like a cup of coffee, which he can get in most places anyhow, and I am glad that the necessity for the Amendment has been recognised. To that extent it represents. a small improvement on what was from the very beginning a wrong, bad and, I think immoral Bill.

Mr. Roderic Bowen (Cardigan)

On Second Reading, I stressed the view that this was a quite unnecessary Measure, and I still hold that view. At the same time I think it would be churlish on my part not to say I welcome this Amendment. Certainly, I support it. It follows a similar provision in the Licensed Premises in New Towns Act, 1952, although in that Act, if I remember correctly, the matter is left to the discretion of the authorities, while here it is obligatory, without any qualification, for hot and cold beverages other than intoxicating liquor to be provided at the same' time as intoxicating liquor is provided.. I congratulate the Joint Parliamentary Secretary on making this obligatory provision. I would suggest that he should induce the Home Secretary to make a provision in similar terms applicable to licensed premises throughout the country.

Mr. Somerville Hastings (Barking)

I want to add my word of congratulation to the Minister on producing this Amendment, not because it makes a bad Bill a good Bill, but because it makes a bad Bill a little less bad. If the provisions of the subsection are not carried out the Minister is empowered to revoke the licence, but the subsection concludes: …this subsection shall be without prejudice to his power of making a further order with respect to that airport. When will that further licence be granted? Will the licence be revoked one day and regranted the next? If so, all this becomes a very easy matter. I should like to know the exact terms for the regranting after the revocation, and perhaps the Minister will tell us about that.

Mr. F. Beswick (Uxbridge)

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary was pressed in Committee to make some such provision as this, and I should like to express my appreciation to him for the fact that he has attempted to meet the request. There is something in what my hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Mr. Hastings) said about the Minister's powers under the subsection. It was not clear to us that the Minister had power to revoke the licence, anyhow. It would seem that it could be revoked only by the licensing authority. Perhaps the Joint Parliamentary Secretary will tell us what he has in mind, but we are grateful to him for having tried to meet the spirit of the demand that we made to him in Committee.

Mr. Geoffrey de Freitas (Lincoln)

There are certainly two questions for the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to answer, the meaning of the last part of the subsection, and the question which my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) asked about what are reasonable prices. A reasonable man nowadays no longer accords with the old legal definition of the man on the top of the Clapham omnibus, but is, apparently, one who takes an aircraft to Renfrew. What is that reasonable man to expect a reasonable price to be? By this Amendment the Government have, at long last, recognised the merit of a case which was put to them in Committee, and I think that everyone will agree that there ought to be some sympathy for those who repent.

Mr. Profumo

With your permission, Sir, and that of the House, I would answer the questions which have been put to me. First, I would say to the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) that my right hon. Friend and I have no control as such over the prices at which these things are sold. We have no control over the prices of the alcoholic drinks any more than we have over the prices of the non-alcoholic drinks. They will be reasonable. As the hon. Member knows from correspondence with me, although it was correspondence about cups of tea and not alcoholic beverages, when caterers have to keep a service going all night and, naturally, have to comply with catering regulations and have to pay higher salaries during late hours, it is rather difficult for them to charge prices as cheap as those charged during ordinary working hours. In that respect, cups of tea fluctuate slightly in price according to the hour of the day or night, and it is possible that the price of alcoholic beverages may go up or down. My right hon. Friend has responsibility only for seeing that the facilities are reasonable and that where alcoholic beverages are served non-alcoholic beverages, both hot and cold, are available to the public. That was the spirit of the request made in Committee, and that is what we have tried to meet.

I assure the hon. Member for South Ayrshire that we shall never charge more than is necessary for cups of tea. We are not trying to make a profit at the Airport by charging more than reasonable prices. I hope that the hon. Member will agree that, in general, they are reasonable.

On the question of revocation, it will be seen from the Amendment that it is not the licence, as I think the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) had in mind, that my right hon. Friend will revoke. It is the order. The Amendment makes it obligatory on my right hon. Friend to revoke the order if he thinks that reasonable facilities have not been made available. How long the order is revoked must be left to the reasonableness of my right hon. Friend, or whoever is the Minister at the time.

The whole purpose of the Bill is obviously to ensure that major international airports shall have facilities which are regarded as being reasonable qua other international airports all over the world. It would be wholly unreasonable if, for some reason or another, a licensee failed to comply with the law and the Minister, having revoked the order, could never restore it to the same airport and the airport was made to suffer. The intention of the Amendment is to see that whilst there are alcoholic beverages being served there shall be at the same time hot and cold non-alcoholic beverages available at reasonable prices.

Mr. Hastings

Is it proposed that prices of both alcoholic and non-alcoholic beverages shall vary according to the time of day or night? Are they to be higher at night or are they to remain the same during the twenty-four hours?

Amendment agreed to

10.14 p.m.

The Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. Harold Watkinson)

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

To those hon. Members who very sincerely oppose any Measure of this nature on the grounds of conscience, I have nothing to say other than that they will have noted that the Measure is extremely restricted in its scope. It is restricted physically by the Customs barrier in the two main airports—London and Prestwick—where alone it will apply at the moment, because the drinks in question can be sold only beyond that very strict barrier. Those of us who have used these airports will know what a firm and irreversible barrier it is. To those who wish our airports to give a service comparable to that offered in other airports all over the world, I would say that this Measure is a modest but necessary improvement which helps the competitive position of our main airports.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Ian Harvey), who first brought the Measure to the House. It fulfils a very useful purpose, and it is in that spirit that I would commend it to the House—not as some great breach of principle, but as a small but useful Measure which tries to improve the amenities offered to international travellers by our major airports.

10.15 p.m.

Mr. Beswick

I regret the fact that it was ever thought necessary to take up the time of Parliament with a Measure of this kind. Surely there are many more important matters to occupy our time. It seems a pity that we should go out of our way to introduce such a Bill. I state the belief that I expressed during the Second Reading debate, that I do not think a single extra passenger will come through London Airport because of the possibility he now has of obtaining a drink out of hours. We should have done much better for civil aviation if we had first concentrated on encouraging through freight traffic and had made possible some bonded warehouses at London Airport. If the Minister and the Joint Parliamentary Secretary had concentrated' upon that first I could have understood it, but for them to say that we are going to encourage through passenger traffic by a Bill of this kind is something I cannot accept.

Further, although the Bill has been improved by the assurances given in Committee and by the Amendment which has just been moved, I want once more to express my regret that the Minister and Joint Parliamentary Secretary did not find it possible to return to the principle which we have for so long established, that licences and the conditions applying to them should be matters for the consideration of proper licensing authorities and not a Minister who, in this case, is an interested party. I am sure that we have gone wrong in breaking with that principle and the practices of the past in this respect. For that reason also I shall certainly vote against the Third Reading.

10.18 p.m.

Mr. Stan Awbery (Bristol, Central)

There is one point which I do not think has been raised, namely, the question of what I call the extra-territorial privileges which we shall give to these airports. The only body which can exercise the right to keep its licensed premises open for 24 hours in the day at the moment is the House of Commons. We have that privilege, because, I understand, this was, once a Royal Palace. We are now extending this privilege to the airports. I very much regret this, because, like many of my hon. Friends, I feel that it is the thin end of the wedge, and it may develop much further in a short time.

If we are going to give this privilege to the airports, there is no reason why we should not give it to the seaports.

Hon. Members

Hear, hear.

Mr. Awbery

I am trying to demonstrate—and hon. Members opposite are confirming—the point that this is the thin end of the wedge. Next, the seaports will receive the privilege, then the coach stations, and then the railway stations. My hon. Friends and I quite appreciate the feelings of hon. Members opposite. They have always had the brewery interests to fall back upon. Whenever a brewery interest has come before the House it has always been able to depend on the support of the party opposite. Tonight we are voting against the Bill.

10.20 p.m.

Mr. Emrys Hughes

I do not see why a decent, self-respecting place like Prestwick should be inflicted with this Bill. The authorities in Prestwick will have to administer it and, presumably, when the Bill becomes law the local police will have to differentiate between people who are allowed to drink and others who are not.

Take, for example, the case of an American soldier stationed at Prestwick. if an American soldier travels to Prestwick by air, and stops there on his way to America to meet a pal who is stationed at Prestwick, the traveller will be allowed to have a drink but the man who meets him will not. In such cases, the Chief Constable of Ayrshire will have to enforce the law, which means that this already overworked official will have to see that the law is enforced in the hotel at Prestwick. It already means that he will have to send members of the Ayrshire Police Force into the Prestwick Airport at all times of the day and night to ensure that the provisions of the Bill are being carried out. I do not believe, therefore, that this Measure will be welcomed at Prestwick.

If Prestwick should decide to go "dry," the result will be that people behind the international barrier will not be able to have an international drink. This Bill is not meant for travellers at all. I travel regularly to Prestwick and the first thing that happens when a traveller boards the aeroplane at London Airport is that a list of expensive drinks is placed before him. That is not to satisfy his thirst, but to provide profits for the vested interests. [Laughter] Of course it is. This is a demand from the powerful and ever watchful vested interests who always know that hon. Gentlemen opposite will be their very humble servants. That is the truth about this.

If a passenger going to New York is afflicted with a great thirst on approaching Prestwick, he can always buy a little bottle of any kind of liquor before leaving the plane. The idea that this Bill is likely to benefit international transport is perfectly ridiculous. It is merely another sop to the powerful and insidious group of vested interests who are well supported by hon. Gentlemen opposite.

10.23 p.m.

Mr. Goronwy Roberts (Caernarvon)

This Bill is an improvement on the Measure which was first presented to Parliament in that it provides for the provision of non-alcoholic drinks side by side with alcoholic drinks. It may serve as a precedent for the application of that principle to other licensed premises and in that sense perhaps it may be claimed that this requirement will be the start of a gradual improvement in our licensing laws.

There are still too many places in Britain where only alcoholic drinks can be obtained. There are too many towns where, after six o'clock, seven o'clock or eight o'clock at night, young people have to go to "pubs" and such places to get any refreshment at all. I hope that this principle may be embodied in any future legislation. So far, the airports are the only places obliged to provide this double provision, and I hope that this will help to extend the principle to all licensed premises in the country.

10.25 p.m.

Mr. de Freitas

It has been clear throughout the debates on this Bill that many of my hon. Friends genuinely believe this Measure to be most undesirable. Indeed, some of them have stated that it is morally wrong. It is also clear that many of my hon. Friends do not share that belief, but consider it right and desirable on its merits. We have given this our consideration, and we regard it as a matter of conscience. Therefore, we are allowing a free vote on it to this side of the House. In saying that, may I say that we are shocked that the Government have not seen fit to do the same thing.

10.26 p.m.

Mr. Profumo

I hope that the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) will not be too shocked at the Government having the courage of their own convictions. If the Government bring forward a Bill they are entitled to expect that their supporters are behind it. This party has that belief. My right hon. Friend has already spoken of the convictions which divide certain hon. Members in regard to the introduction of the Bill.

I must address myself to one or two points so that no hon. Member will feel that he has not been given some answer. The hon. Member for Caernarvon (Mr. G. Roberts) asked about the principles of the Bill being extended to the other licensing laws. I hope he will acquit me of discourtesy if I do not answer that point in detail. It is outside the scope of the Bill, being more for my right hon. and gallant Friend the Home Secretary to answer than for me.

The hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) made the speech which I knew he would make because I have heard him make it before. It amuses me every time.

Mr. Emrys Hughes

The hon. Gentleman did not answer it.

Mr. Profumo

I think the hon. Gentleman knows the answer to it as well as I do. I would not object to the speech if it represented the point of view of Prestwick itself. It would be wholly wrong for the Government to produce and pass into law a Bill which made it possible for drinking to take place at certain hours in order to help international airports, while leaving out the second international airport in Great Britain. To deny to people the possibility of drinking Scotch whisky in Scotland is something which I, as an Englishman, would not advise my right hon. Friend to put into any Bill.

The hon. Member for South Ayrshire spoke about people who were travelling being able to drink while people meeting the travellers would not be able to drink. The drink laws in the Palace of Westminster, for which I am not responsible, allow us to drink long after the licensing hours. Hon. Members who work, or at least say that they work here, are able to get a drink while people who come to meet them are not able to do so. Visitors will not be allowed under the Bill to drink. We are not seeking to extend the law merely because we allow passengers to drink, and not their visitors. If we were to extend the Bill to visitors there might be something in the objection, but that is something that my right hon. Friend does not intend to do.

The hon. Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Beswick) spoke about taking up the time of Parliament. We have done this intentionally. We felt it was wise and right in introducing a Measure of this kind to come fairly and squarely to Parliament, out into the open, and say what we wanted to do rather than resort, as we might have done, to some of the possibilities which exist in the licensing laws for exempting certain places.

When the hon. Member for Bristol, Central (Mr. Awbery) spoke about extraterritorial rights perhaps he will remember that there are extra-territorial rights in places like Covent Garden, where people work rather unorthodox hours. Exemptions take place there under the licensing laws which allow them to drink after hours. We felt is was wiser to come before the House and explain the matter fairly and squarely.

There is one final point made by the hon. Member for Uxbridge. I am a little surprised at his making it. He said he doubted whether one extra passenger would go through London Air-port as the result of the Bill. That is not the point. What we want to be sure about is that there is not one fewer passenger going through. There are signs that passengers who are accustomed to the facilities that other international airports in Europe and other parts of the world are not fond of coming to London Airport because it cannot give the same facilities. It is no use trying to build a great national civil aviation industry unless we are given the tools for the job.

With that explanation, I hope that the House will now be good enough to pass on to other business after giving the Bill its Third Reading.

Question put.

The house divided: Ayes 164, Noes 42.

Division No. 172.] AYES [10.30 p.m.
Agnew, Cmdr. P. G Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel Parker, J
Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G Partridge, E
Arbuthnot, John Hill, John (S. Norfolk) Paton, J
Armstrong, C. W Hinchingbrooke, Viscount Pitt, Miss E. M
Ashton, H Hirst, Geoffrey Pott, H. P
Balniel, Lord Holland-Martin, c. J Powell, J. Enoch
Barber, Anthony Hope, Lord John Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)
Barter, John Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P Profumo, J. D
Baxter, Sir Beverley Horobin, Sir Ian Raikes, Sir Victor
Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) Howell, Denis (All Saints) Ramsden, J. E
Bidgood, J. C Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.) Rawlinson, Peter
Bishop, F. P Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J Redmayne, M
Body, R. F Hughes-Young, M. H. C. Ridsdale, J. E
Bossom, Sir A. C Hurd, A. R Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)
Brookway, A. F Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)
Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G, T Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) Roper, Sir Harold
Burke, W. A Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle) Schofield, Lt.-Col. W
Cary, Sir Robert Johnson, Eric (Blackley) Simon, J. E. S.(Middlesbrough, W.)
Channon, H Joseph, Sir Keith Smithers, Peter (Winchester)
Chichester-Clark, R. Keegan, D. Spearman, A. C. M.
Cole, Norman Kerr, H. W. Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir p.(Kens'gt'n, S.)
Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K Kershaw, J. A Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard
Corfield, Capt. F. V Kirk, P. M Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, w.)
Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) Leather, E. H. C Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)
Crouch, R. F Leavey, J. A Stoddart-Scott, Col. M
Cunningham, Knox Leburn, W. G Studholme, H. G
Currie, G. B. H Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H Summers, G. S. (Aylesbury)
D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield) Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)
Deedes, w. F Linstead, Sir H. N Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)
Delargy, H. J Llewellyn, D. T Teeling, W
Donaldson, Cmdr, C. E. McA Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.) Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)
Donnelly, D. L Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.) Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)
Doughty, C. J. A McKibbin, A. J Touche, Sir Gordon
Drayson, G. B McLaughlin, Mrs. P Turner, H. F. L
du Cann, E. D. L Maclay, Rt. Hon. John Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H
Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries) Vane, W. M. F
Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West) Maddan, Martin Vaughan-Morgan, J. K
Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle) Vickers, Miss J. H
Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark) Vosper, D. F
Errington, Sir Eric Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)
Farey-Jones, F. W Marples, A. E Walker-Smith, D. C
Fisher, Nigel Marshall, Douglas Wall, Major Patrick
Foster, John Maude, Angus Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)
Freeth, D. K Maudling, Rt. Hon. R Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)
George, J. C. (Pollok) Mawby, R. L Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C
Gibson-Watt, D Molson, A. H. E Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold
Glover, D. Mott-Radclyffe, C E Whitelaw, W.S.I.(Penrith & Border)
Godber, J. B. Nabarro, G. D. N Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)
Gower, H. R Nairn, D. L. S Wills, G. (Bridgwater)
Graham, Sir Fergus Neave, Airey Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich) Nicholls, Harmar Wood, Hon. R
Gresham Cooke, R Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham) Yates, William (The Wrekin)
Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G Nield, Basil (Chester)
Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon) Nugent, G. R. H. TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) Oakshott, H. D Mr. Richard Thompson and
Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.) Page, R. G Mr. Bryan.
NOES
Ainsley, J. W Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.) Pearson, A
Black, C. W Hastings, S Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)
Blenkinsop, A Hayman, F. H Randall, H. E
Blyton, W. R Holmes, Horace Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)
Bowen, E, R. (Cardigan) Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)
Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth Hunter, A. E Slater, J. (Sedgefield)
Brown, Thomas (Ince) Jones, David (The Hartlepools) Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)
Callaghan, L. J Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Watkins, T. E
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C King, Dr. H. M Wilkins, W. A
Fernyhough, E Logan, D. C Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)
Gibson, C. W Mann, Mrs. Jean Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)
Gooch, E. G. Mason, Roy Yates, V. (Ladywood)
Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R Monslow, W
Grey, C. F Orbach, M TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) Oswald, T. Mr. Beswick and Mr. Awbery.

Bill accordingly read the third time and passed, with Amendments.