HC Deb 24 July 1956 vol 557 cc179-82
4. Mr. Ian Harvey

asked the Secretary of State for War what steps he is taking to ascertain from Territorial units their opinions as to the effectiveness of training National Service men for a period of one year only.

Mr. Head

We are and will continue to be in close touch with Territorial Army units and commanders throughout the present training season. There will be a conference towards the end of the training season.

13. Mr. Swingler

asked the Secretary of State for War what proportions of the Army are at present made up of National Service men and Regulars on three-year engagements, respectively; and what would be the strength of the Army if National Service was abolished forthwith.

Mr. Head

Fifty-two per cent. of other ranks are National Service men and 24 per cent. are Regulars on three-year engagements. If all National Service men were released at once, the strength of the Army would drop to about 170,000 other ranks.

Mr. Swingler

Is the Secretary of State aware that his statement last night on the subject of the ending of conscription will cause the utmost dismay in the country, where an early end to it is expected? Is he aware that he will be blamed for putting the Army on a short-service basis? Will he tell the House what is his conception of ending conscription, and when he expects it to be ended?

Mr. Head

I think it is much more likely that hon. Gentlemen opposite will be blamed for making irresponsible statements about the ending of National Service.

Mr. Strachey

Will not the Secretary of State agree that these are very early days in his own recruiting policy, after the changes in pay, for him to be as dogmatic as he was yesterday and as he is again today on the subject of the rate of recruiting which he will get? Is he not really being extremely pessimistic even about his own efforts?

Mr. Head

I am not being dogmatic or pessimistic. As the right hon. Gentleman can see if he will study my speech, all I tried to point out was that even if recruiting is a splendid success and we get very large numbers, inescapably there is a trough or run-down in the Army between 1958 and 1962, and nothing that anybody can do will avoid that.

Mr. Callaghan

What, then, did the Minister of Defence mean when he said he hoped to abolish National Service well before the next General Election. Does not that arouse hopes and expectations in the minds of countless thousands of young people? What kind of muddle are the Government getting into on this matter?

Mr. Head

I am unaware of the quotation which the hon. Gentleman is making. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] All that was said some considerable time ago—six months ago. If the hon. Gentleman will study the matter he will see that there is an inevitable rundown that ensues. Nobody has abandoned the idea of eventual abolition of National Service, but the rundown between 1958 and 1961 is inevitable.

Mr. Stokes

Is it not absurd for a Secretary of State for War to say he is totally unaware of what the Minister of Defence has said? [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] He said that. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Yes, he did. Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that his own staff consider that it is impossible with any real approximation to assess what the results of the improved attractions to recruitment will be in under one year?

Mr. Head

I hope that I know as well as the right hon. Gentleman does what my own staff are saying, but everybody is agreed, however improved recruiting may be, that between 1958 and 1961 we have a void which must be filled somehow.

Mr. Callaghan

Muddle, muddle, muddle.

15. Mr. Sorensen

asked the Secretary of State for War approximately how many National Service men avail themselves of facilities available for training for employment in civil life; and what further steps have been taken to encourage those who are unskilled or have no particular civilian employment to secure suitable vocational training during their period of National Service.

Mr. Head

National Service men have a right to reinstatement in their former employment, and therefore no general scheme of resettlement training has been set up for them. All are however encouraged to carry out vocational or other study at Army education centres or to take one or more of the 600 correspondence courses which are available. Those serving at home can also attend local evening classes free of charge.

Available statistics do not show the number of National Service men undergoing vocational training of one kind or another, and very great clerical effort would be required to obtain it.

Mr. Sorensen

Could the Secretary of State inquire from those who are responsible for educating these young men approximately how many are receiving such vocational training who have not already had their employment guaranteed to them? Will the right hon. Gentleman encourage such training among the large number of young men who drift out of the Army without being properly trained for future employment?

Mr. Head

When men join the Army we give them a pamphlet about educational facilities in the Army, a copy of which I will send the hon. Member, if he wishes to have it. It lays out very fully what facilities are available during their National Service.