HC Deb 29 February 1956 vol 549 cc1189-91
The Minister of Education (Sir David Eccles)

With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement on technical education on behalf of the Secretary of State for Scotland and myself.

A White Paper on the future of technical education, covering England, Wales and Scotland, was available to hon. Members in the Vote Office earlier this afternoon. This Paper is mainly devoted to technical education in the schools and technical colleges. The universities review their programmes every five years and are now working on plans for 1957–62. For this reason it has not been possible to deal in the White Paper with the university side in the same detail.

Mr. M. Stewart

The right hon. Gentleman will realise that his statement tells us no more than that the White Paper is available, and he will recognise that so far there has been little opportunity to study it. May I at this stage put two questions to him? First, is it not the case that the success of any of the proposals mentioned in the White Paper is bound up with a considerable programme of capital expenditure by local authorities? Can he say whether such a programme is to be in any way exempt from the restrictions and limitations recently announced by the Government, and what assistance the Government may be able to give to local authorities in raising capital for expenditure of that kind? Secondly, would he intimate to his right hon. Friend the Leader of the House the desirability of a full debate on this subject as soon as hon. Members have had time to study the White Paper?

Sir D. Eccles

I realise that the hon. Member has not had much time, and I apologise for that.

Mr. Ellis Smith

We have not seen the White Paper.

Sir D. Eccles

The capital programme is exempt from cuts or delays or postponements of any kind, because the Government feel that this is fundamental to our economic prosperity. Local authorities are helped in a way in which they have not been helped before, because we have got away from the procedure of annual instalments, and the White Paper shows that authorities are now getting a more or less firm programme for five years. I will, of course, convey to my right hon. Friend the hon. Member's desire for a debate.

Mr. Woodburn

If the right hon. Gentleman is making arrangements through the usual channels, may I ask whether the Secretary of State will take some part in the debate, because it is very important to Scotland—

Mr. Ellis Smith

And Wales.

Mr. Woodburn

—that our rather special technical problems should be discussed in the House occasionally.

Sir D. Eccles

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland is intensely interested in technical education in Scotland, and no doubt he will take account of the right hon. Gentleman's remarks.

Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing

Is my right hon. Friend aware that it will give very great satisfaction in many quarters—[HON. MEMBERS: "You have not read it."]—of the House that such an ambitious programme is being launched and that he will have the good wishes of everybody on this question of technical education?

Mr. E. Fletcher

Is the Minister not aware that it will be quite impossible for the House to consider the adequacy or otherwise of the Government's plans in technological education until we know what expansion there will be in university education? Can he tell us when there will be a Government statement on their plans in that respect?

Sir D. Eccles

We need all the additional scientists and technologists that we can get, both from the universities and from the alternative route through the technical colleges. The university quinquennium plans are usually published, and no doubt they will be published again.

Lady Tweedsmuir

Can my right hon. Friend say what is the total sum involved and how much will be spent in Scotland?

Sir D. Eccles

The figures, on the physical assets alone, are: for England and Wales, £70 million for buildings and £15 million for equipment; and for Scotland, £10 million for buildings and £2 million for equipment.

Mr. Peart

Is the Minister aware that, on a quick reading of the White Paper, this does not seem very ambitious? Can we have an assurance from him that the postponements of starts of school building construction will in no way affect that building which caters for technical education?

Sir D. Eccles

That is a different question; but the preparation of the students to go into technical colleges and, for that matter, the universities is of first-class importance, and we shall, naturally, not devote undue resources to one part of the education system and not enough to another.

Mr. Gaitskell

May I press the Minister to answer the question asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher)? We all agree about the immense importance of university technical and technological education. Could the Minister be a little more precise about when we may expect a Government statement on this? Surely the Government themselves have some interest in it, quite apart from the universities?

Sir D. Eccles

The University Grants Committee is at the moment grappling with the plans for the quinquennium 1957–62, and as soon as those plans are formulated I have no doubt that a statement can be made.

Mr. Gaitskell

Are there not discussions with the Government at the same time? Are not the Government involved in this? Can we have a Government statement on the matter?

Sir D. Eccles

Certainly the plans are being discussed with the Government, but they are not yet in the same firm condition as the plans for technical colleges. When they are, we will announce them. It cannot be very long delayed, since the next quinquennium begins next year.