New Clause.—(TRANSCRIPTS OF EVIDENCE.) (Hansard, 5 July 1955)

§ Mr. Hale
I beg to move, That the Clause be read a Second time.
Out of courtesy to the Committee, and in view of the fact that our labours are nearly concluded, I propose to put this matter briefly but that does not indicate any lack of interest in it. This is a vexed problem, and the proposed new Clause is put forward more for the purpose of obtaining elucidation than for that of tying up the rules, but necessarily it covers the point as well as it can be covered.
The existing provision is very unsatisfactory. There is no doubt at all that if mechanical aids could be provided, or if more adequate provision could be made for shorthand writers being available in cases of importance, the working of the courts would be very much more satisfactory and in the main very much more economical. It is strange how the Legislature has always been prepared to employ judges and never give them any staff with which to work. County court judges did not have paid clerks until recent times and even now I believe they have to make special arrangements. They never have a chauffeur although they have to cover wide areas. In the same way no provision is made for shorthand writers in these important courts.
I do not know as much as do hon. Members opposite about the development of electronics, and so on, but certainly we know that recording machines of great ability and comparative cheapness are available and could cover the whole of the events which take place in the county court. Therefore, this is a matter for consideration. I suggest that between now and the Report stage the right hon. 1086 and learned Gentleman should make a statement on the sort of principles which should guide magistrates and their advisers on the provision of recording apparatus.

§ The Attorney-General
I think I can tell the hon. Member that a close watch is being kept on the development of recording instruments and mechanical aids to see when they reach the stage at which they can be usefully employed in court. My hon. and learned Friend said, on Second Reading, that at present it is extremely difficult to distinguish who is speaking when a record is played back. I imagine that it would be very difficult in the case of a quick interchange between the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) and a witness to whom he was addressing questions.
Attention is being paid to the problem, and under the rules as they stand it is felt that provision can be made for the use of these instruments should they reach a stage at which they can be relied upon to portray what has taken place in the county court in such a form that the appellate tribunal is left in no doubt about who is giving evidence. In conclusion, I thank the hon. Member for the brevity with which he moved the Second Reading of this Clause, which, I agree, raises a question of very great importance.

§ Mr. E. Fletcher
May I ask the Solicitor-General whether he is satisfied that under the existing law the Rules Committee has power to make county court rules to provide for shorthand writers in county courts?

§ The Solicitor-General
Our view is that Section 99 of the principal Act, which in effect improves the provisions of Section 99 of the Judicature Consolidation Act, 1925, is as wide as the hon. Member could want in the circumstances, and by amending it one would be in grave danger of actually narrowing the power.

§ Sir E. Errington
I wish to refer to page 181 of the Evershed Committee Report, where words are used which quite definitely indicate the difficulties arising about shorthand writers. The Report says: It was generally accepted, and we think it must be assumed, that it would in practice be found quite impossible to man every County Court with a properly trained official shorthand-writer. 1087 In those circumstances it seems that we ought to have some indication from the Government of how they intend to deal with this limiting factor. That seems much more of a limiting factor than the work in the Court of Appeal.

§ Mr. Hale
I feel concern because of the very large number of matters which the right hon. and learned Gentleman says he is going to watch, and I hope all that watching will not lead to any optical trouble, as the contemplation of so many things at once has been known to do. However, in view of the very courteous and kindly answer which the right hon. and learned Gentleman gave to me, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.