HC Deb 02 June 1954 vol 528 cc1351-5
Mr. J. Stuart

I beg to move, in page 18, line 17, to leave out from "where," to the end of line 18.

This and the six following Amendments to page 18 all hang together. They are designed to meet points expressed in Committee by the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser), who considered that the original wording of the Bill could be improved. We have done our best to meet him in this respect, and I hope that he will be satisfied.

Mr. Patrick Maitland (Lanark)

I must apologise for not being able, in Committee, to make the remarks which I feel it my duty to make now, because I was at that time serving on another Standing Committee which was dealing with the Mines and Quarries Bill.

Paragraphs (b) and (d) of this subsection lift from the protection of the Rent Restriction Acts those houses built by a development corporation or by a Scottish local authority association. As a result, I have received representations from constituents living in the new town of East Kilbride, and this point may very well crop up elsewhere. Therefore, I feel it my duty to state the anxiety that these people feel—

Mr. T. Fraser

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I think the hon. Member for Lanark (Mr. Patrick Maitland) is seeking to discuss these paragraphs in Clause 23 (1) and not the Amendments which are before the House. With respect, I should think that he would be out of order in doing so.

Mr. Speaker

I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman. I was trying to follow this somewhat complicated matter. It seems to me that the point of the Amendment as it was moved by the Secretary of State is a very narrow one, and I do not think it would bear the weight of argument that the hon. Member was trying to place upon it.

Mr. Maitland

May I have your guidance, Mr. Speaker? Is it possible at this stage to seek an assurance from the Secretary of State on two points?

Mr. Speaker

It is not possible on the Report stage, which is merely a tidying up performance after the Committee stage. It is not really an occasion for speeches on the Clauses of the Bill.

7.0 p.m.

Mr. T. Fraser

The Secretary of State was kind enough to say that these Amendments were put down to give effect to some requests which I made during the Committee stage, and I should like to thank him very much.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In page 18, line 19, after "(a)," insert: the interest of the landlord belongs to.

In line 24, after "(b)," insert: the said interest belongs to.

In line 26, after "(c)," insert: the said interest belongs to.

In line 26, leave out "where."

In line 28, after "(d)," insert: the said interest belongs to.

In line 33, after "(e)," insert: the said interest belongs to."—[Mr. J. Stuart.]

Commander Galbraith

I beg to move, in page 19, line 12, after "1950," to insert: or with the assistance of a local authority under section two of the Housing, &c., Act, 1923. The purpose of the Amendment is merely to rectify an omission. The subsection lays down the conditions under which tenancies held by housing associations are exempted from the Rent Restrictions Acts. The Amendment proposes to include those houses, belonging to such associations, which were provided with the assistance of local authorities under Section 2 of the Housing Act, 1923.

Mr. D. Johnston

Before the House accepts the Amendment, I feel that we ought to know a little more about its effects. As I understand, Section 2 of the Housing Act, 1923, provided for a local authority advancing funds to a housing association or guaranteeing its overdraft or any loans which it might obtain from a building society. The local authority might then impose such conditions as it thought fit upon the authority which was building the houses. The effect of this Amendment seems to be to take those houses, which up till now have been covered by the Rent Restrictions Acts, out of the operation of those Acts. The Amendment might well affect houses owned by associations like the Western Heritable Investment Company.

Commander Galbraith

indicated dissent.

Mr. Johnston

The right hon. and gallant Gentleman shakes his head, but will he tell us under what Act the loans were made to that company?

I do not think we should accept this Amendment, which has the effect of still further limiting the operation of the Rent Restrictions Acts, without being told how far it is likely to operate, and in relation to what types of house and the total number of houses it will operate. Until we get that assurance I suggest that we should not accept the Amendment.

Commander Galbraith

The hon. and learned Member is correct in what he said about the Housing Act, but the Amendment could not possibly apply to a concern such as the Western Heritable Investment Company. It applies only to housing associations, and not to public companies of that nature. The Government are of the opinion that housing associations are reputable people who trade on a non-profit making basis or have the rates of interest on their capital fixed by the Treasury. We consider that they should have the opportunity of fixing the rents of their houses.

If we did not have this provision they would be entitled to increase their rents by two-fifths, and we consider that it is much better that, being reliable authorities, they should have the opportunity of maintaining flexibility and not have to jump into an increase of two-fifths or any other amount, which they might feel inclined to do if they were not free to act as they see fit and reasonable. It is for that reason that the Amendment has been moved, and I hope that the House will agree to it.

Mr. McInnes

I have endeavoured to follow the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's argument about housing associations, but the Amendment merely says: or with the assistance of a local authority under section two or the Housing, &c., Act, 1923. Section 23 refers to houses provided by local authorities themselves, by a society, by a body of trustees, or by a company. The Western Heritable Investment Company is obviously a company, and I am not sure that the reference in the Amendment to this Section of the Act of 1923 would not apply in the case of such companies.

Commander Galbraith

With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I will answer the point made by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Central (Mr. McInnes). The hon. Member must refer to the opening words of subsection (2, a), which are: the premises comprised in the tenancy were provided by the housing association … They have to be provided by the housing association.

Amendment agreed to.

Commander Galbraith

I beg to move, in page 19, line 17, at the end, to insert: and those premises were provided by the housing association before the thirteenth day of November, nineteen hundred and fifty-three. During the Committee stage the hon. and learned Member for Paisley (Mr. D. Johnston) suggested that it might be possible for an industrial concern to promote a housing association for the purpose of freeing houses provided for its workers from the control of the Rent Acts. By requiring that the houses have to be provided by a housing association before the publication of the Bill, I believe that the Amendment meets the fears which the hon. and learned Member expressed.

Mr. D. Johnston

I am obliged to the Secretary of State and the right hon. and gallant Gentleman. The Amendment entirely meets the point I made in Committee.

Mr. T. Fraser

My hon. and learned Friend has said that he accepts the Amendment, as I do, because it meets the point he made during the Committee stage, but I should like to ask the Joint Under-Secretary of State what the position is in relation to houses provided by a housing association between 13th November, 1953, and the date when the Bill becomes an Act of Parliament. I take it that those houses will be controlled, but a new Clause which the Government thought fit to move earlier provides that all houses provided after the Bill becomes an Act will not be controlled.

It seems to me—and I hope that the Government will correct me if I am wrong—that, having regard to the Amendment, the Clause, and the new Clause to which I have referred, the only houses held by housing associations which will in future be controlled by the Rent Restrictions Acts are those which have been provided between 13th November, 1953, and the date when the Bill becomes an Act of Parliament.

Commander Galbraith

I should like to think that over before giving a definite reply, but I do not think it arises on the point of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. D. Johnston), which was that houses now rent-controlled might be turned over to a housing association, and freed.

Mr. Fraser

Would the right hon. and gallant Gentleman clear up this question? The Government, quite understandably, gave way to the argument that my hon. and learned Friend made in Committee, but before they thought of the new Clause that takes all the houses built after the passage of the Measure out of rent control altogether. Therefore, will not the effect of these provisions be that only the houses provided between November last year and the passage of the Bill and owned by housing associations will remain within rent control?

Commander Galbraith

That is right. They will remain controlled.

Amendment agreed to.