HC Deb 06 December 1954 vol 535 cc590-3
32. Mrs. Jeger

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether, in the case of pensioners whose rent is being met by the National Assistance Board, he will authorise a check on the accuracy of increases which are being imposed under the Housing Repairs and Rents Act, especially in view of the age and infirmity of many of the pensioners concerned.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance (Mr. Ernest Marples)

This is a matter for the National Assistance Board. They inform my right hon. Friend that every increase of rent reported to them is examined, but that they could not undertake to give tenants what would be tantamount to legal advice regarding rents.

Mrs. Jeger

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that officers of the National Assistance Board tell pensioners whose rents have been increased that that has nothing to do with them? Does that mean that the increases are to be paid automatically to the landlords who demand them, whether they are justified under the Act or not?

Mr. Marples

The question of whether increased rent is paid or not is a matter for the tenants. In most cases, the increase will be met by increased assistance. I emphasise the words "in most cases." The instructions to the officers amount to saying that they are expected to be on the lookout for increases which are too excessive or which, because of the bad state of the property, are plainly improper. But it would be quite beyond the capacity of the officers to examine each individual case and give legal advice to each tenant.

Mr. Janner

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that if the tenant agrees, irrespective of whether it is a proper increase or not, the increase has to be paid? Will he do something about advising these tenants so that public money can be saved if not private money?

Mr. Marples

The Assistance Board cannot take over the duty of giving legal advice to tenants. At the Ministry of Housing and Local Government due attention was given to the steps which the tenants might properly take. There are citizens' advice bureaux, pamphlets have been circulated and so on, and it cannot be expected that the National Assistance Board should give legal advice.

Mrs. Jeger

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that in many of the cases of which I have given him particulars those concerned have gone to the bureaux and have been advised that they have a very good case for not paying but that the bureaux can only advise them to take the landlords to court, which they cannot do because they are on National Assistance anyhow?

Hon. Members

Answer.

Mr. Ede

What did the Parliamentary Secretary mean by "too excessive?" Are we to understand that if the increase is only just excessive the landlord can get away with it?

Mr. Marples

Generally speaking, increases under the Act will be at the same level in each area. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] If by any chance they are found to be excessive, the National Assistance officer will do his best about it but, in general, he cannot undertake that duty in addition to his already onerous obligations.

Mr. Attlee

I cannot understand this. Will not the Parliamentary Secretary agree that if the officer is to protect the Revenue by looking at these cases, he must have some idea of the law? He must look into it and, if he looks into it in that case, why cannot he look into it in others? Surely it is up to the officer to see that this is properly done.

Mr. Marples

The regulations say that the allowance to be included for rent shall be equivalent to the net rent payable or such part thereof as is reasonable having regard to the level of rents in the locality. That is a regulation which has been in force for many years, and it is applied by the National Assistance Officer to the best of his ability having regard to the advice given to him by the local committee.

Mr. Attlee

If the officer has already to consider whether it is reasonable or not, and there is legal provision which rules that, surely the officer must know what the legal provision is when considering whether it is reasonable or not.

Mr. Marples

The right hon. Gentleman has made an error. The officer has to consider whether it is reasonable having regard to the level of rents in the locality, not reasonable having regard to the particular increase.

33. Mr. Carmichael

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what regulations he has made as to the entitlement of persons in receipt of National Assistance to have taken into account increases in their rents in consequence of the rent and repairs Acts, both in England and in Scotland.

Mr. Marples

The Board inform me that no special steps are necessary. They have all the powers needed to enable them to deal with any new situation that may arise in respect of rents paid by persons receiving assistance.

Mr. Carmichael

I go back to the former Question because, in Scotland, rent increases are being called for from tenants. [HON. MEMBERS: "Question."] Hon. Members over there are not on the Front Bench yet. May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary if it is possible to issue instructions, because landlords are asking for increases and there are grave doubts whether the repairs are carried out at all? Surely something should be done to give the tenants instructions so that they may know how to protect themselves from handing out increases in rents when the repairs have not been carried out.

Mr. Marples

Tenants have been given these instructions through a great deal of publicity, and it is not the duty of the National Assistance Board to give them further instructions in this matter.