HC Deb 22 October 1952 vol 505 cc1177-80
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe

I beg to move, in page 7, line 17, to leave out subsections (1) and (2), and to insert: (1) Where under any enactment a power is exercisable by any authority or person—

  1. (a) as respects any of the home forces or their members or service courts or other persons in any way connected therewith, or
  2. (b) as respects any property used or to be used for the purposes of any of the home forces, or for taking possession of any property to be so used, or for acquiring (whether by agreement or compulsorily) any property so used or to be so used,
Her Majesty may by Order in Council make provision for securing that subject to any conditions specified by or under the Order the power shall be exercisable by that authority or person in the case of any visiting force to which the Order applies to any extent to which it would be so exercisable if the visiting force were a part of any of the home forces. (2) Her Majesty may by Order in Council made as respects any visiting force make provision—
  1. (a) for exempting that force or members or service courts thereof or other persons in any way connected therewith, or property used or to be used for the purposes thereof, from the operation of any enactment specified in the Order to any extent to which the force, members, courts, persons or property would be, or would be capable of being, exempted therefrom if the force were a part of any of the home forces;
  2. (b) for conferring on that force or any such members, courts, persons or property as aforesaid any other privilege or immunity specified in the Order, being a privilege or immunity which would be enjoyed by, or would be capable of being conferred on, the force, members, courts, persons or property if the force were a part of any of the home forces,
subject however to any conditions specified by or under the Order. (3) Where by any enactment the doing of anything is prohibited, restricted or required in relation to—
  1. (a) any of the home forces or their members or service courts or other persons in any way connected therewith,
  2. (b) any property used or to be used for the purposes of any of the home forces.
Her Majesty may by Order in Council make provision for securing that the prohibition, restriction or requirement shall have effect in the case of any visiting force to which the Order applies to any extent to which it so would have effect if the visiting force were a part of any of the home forces. (4) An Order in Council under this section—
  1. (a) may contain such incidental, consequential and supplementary provisions as appear to Her Majesty in Council expedient for the purposes of the Order, including provisions for applying, modifying, adapting or suspending any enactment;
  2. (b) may make financial provision in respect of the exercise of any power, or the discharge of any duty, conferred or imposed by the Order.
 I wonder if it would be convenient for the Committee if I gave a general account of the purpose for which this Amendment is designed, although I did refer briefly to the matter on Second Reading? The Committee may remember that I gave an undertaking during the Second Reading to put down an Amendment to Clause 8 so as to provide that visiting forces should not themselves be entitled to exercise compulsory powers. I do not think that anyone differed from that.

The second point of my Amendment is to make it clear that visiting forces can be put in no better position than that which the home forces could be put, and the Amendment serves to implement that undertaking. Perhaps I might be allowed to give a short summary of the whole Clause as amended in order that the Committee can appreciate what is before them. That means going on to the further Amendments which are included in a further subsection. I hope hon. Gentlemen may find it useful to have a conspectus of the whole Clause.

Subsection (1) enables Orders in Council to be made providing that wherever a United Kingdom authority has compulsory powers in relation to home forces that authority shall be able to exercise them for the benefit of visiting forces. Under the Defence Acts the Secretary of State for War and the Secretary of State for Air have power to acquire land compulsorily for the purposes of the home forces. The subsection will enable them to acquire land compulsorily for the purposes of visiting forces, and as I have pointed out before, the visiting forces will have no compulsory powers.

Subsection (2) enables Orders in Council to be made granting to visiting forces the exemptions from the ordinary law that could be granted if the visiting forces were part of the home forces. Again I make it clear that no higher exemption may be granted to the visiting forces than could be granted to the home forces. I did give some examples, and I do not wish to go through them again, but they include obvious things like the carrying and possession of firearms essential to every force.

Subsection (3) enables the visiting forces to be placed by Order in Council in the same position as the home forces as regards obligations and prohibitions that are imposed on persons in relation to the forces. The Committee will remember that I gave the example on Second Reading of harbouring a deserter. That offence, I might make it clear in passing, would be an offence against the United Kingdom law and not against the law of the State sending the visiting forces. Again I emphasise that the subsection does not allow persons to be placed in a less advantageous position in relation to a visiting force than they are in relation to home forces.

Subsection (4) deals with the points of enabling the Order in Council to amend Acts for the purpose of that Order—I repeat and emphasise for the purpose of that Order—and enables financial provision to be made.

Subsection (5) makes financial provision for the cost of things done for the visiting forces, for example the acquisition of land for the purposes of visiting forces which might require increased expenditure, and the expenditure involved will be an increase of expenditure already provided for rather than a new amount of expenditure.

I am sure everyone in the Committee will appreciate the importance of subsection (6), which provides for an affirmative resolution, that is, the stronger form of Parliamentary control, in respect of all Orders in Council made under the Clause.

Subsection (7) is a definition provision. Subsection (8) is necessary because home forces are not always expressly mentioned in the enactments in question. I quote as an example the Explosive Substances Act, 1897. Other exemptions arise from the rule that an enactment does not bind the Crown.

I am sorry to have inflicted this explanation on the Committee, but I feel it ought to know the method in which I have tried to carry out my pledge, and I am sure that all hon. Members in the Committee would like these two matters, which I have stressed so often, to be ensured.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In page 7, line 30, at end, insert: (5) There shall be defrayed out of moneys provided by Parliament any increase attributable to the provisions of an Order under this section in the sums payable out of such moneys under any enactment.

In page 7, line 39, leave out subsections (5) and (6), and insert: (7) In this section— enactment" means an enactment (passed either before or after the passing of this Act) of the Parliament of the United Kingdom or of the Parliament of Northern Ireland, and includes any instrument having effect under an enactment; property" includes both real and personal property, or in Scotland both heritable and moveable property. (8) Subsections (1) and (3) of this section apply whether the power in question is exercisable, or the prohibition, restriction or requirement in question is imposed, by provision expressly relating to the home forces or by more general provision, and subsection (2) of this section applies whether the exemption, privilege or immunity in question would subsist, or be capable of being conferred, by virtue of any such provision or by reason of any enactment's not binding the Crown.—[Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe.]

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.