HC Deb 20 October 1952 vol 505 cc809-12

9.30 p.m.

Mr. Champion

I beg to move, in page 3, line 33, to leave out subsection (2).

We move to leave out the subsection because we want some explanation of it. There are many points about this subsection on which we should like some elucidation. I can well understand that the Minister will realise our difficulty in the matter, and probably he would like to give an explanation straight away.

Sir T. Dugdale

This subsection is inserted as a safeguard for the future. It is perfectly clear that no one will obstruct the marking of an eligible calf because, if so, no subsidy would be payable. But there might be an obstruction to the marking of an imported calf, or of a rejected calf if at some future time myself or any other Minister decided that they should be marked.

I wish to make it clear to the Committee that under the first scheme rejected calves will not be marked. We think on balance, having considered the matter carefully, that they should not be marked, but there will be no appeal. If on the first inspection they do not come up to standard there will be a chance on the second inspection that they might qualify. In the future possibly we might go in for marking, or some other Minister may go in for marking. So far as imported animals are concerned, we put in the provision for safety purposes.

Mr. Paget

I hope the Minister will reconsider this, because it is not in this sort of casual spirit that one ought to create criminal offences. This Clause creates a criminal offence. To say, "We have shoved it in, not because we want this criminal offence for our protection now, but we think it just possible that in the future we shall want to do something which might make it desirable to make it a crime at some future date," is really not the way one ought to go about creating crimes. To bring a man into the dock charged with a criminal offence is a serious matter and ought not to be done in a casual, slipshod way.

If the Minister at some future time makes provisions which cannot be worked properly without calling into assistance provisions of the criminal law he should come to Parliament again and say, "I need the protection of the criminal law." But to say, "I want to provide the protection of the criminal law for something I am not doing, something which at the moment I have no particular intention of doing, something that I might or might not want to do in the future and which I am not quite sure what it will be even if I do want it"—that is not the way in which crime ought to be created. I fully realise that the Minister is not a lawyer and that he will want to consider this matter. I hope he will say, "In view of what has been said, I will have another look at this" before he comes to Report stage.

Sir T. Dugdale

I think the remarks of the hon. and learned Member are not really worthy of him. I did not deal with this in a casual spirit. I have looked at it carefully. In any case we want the provision from the point of view of the possibility of imported calves. The other possibility is for the future, and I have tried to explain to the Committee why we thought it right to have this subsection. This is not being done in a casual spirit; I hope the Committee will accept that from me.

Mr. Champion

On the point which the Minister has just made about the marking of imported calves, I understand that as subsection (1) relates to a calf in respect of which an application for a payment under that scheme has been made … it would be impossible for an application to be made under that scheme. Therefore, the Minister's point could not apply in those circumstances.

My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) made a very strong point. I can well imagine some hon. Members who always spoke so strongly on personal liberty from this side when they were in opposition would have spoken at great length had this point been introduced by the Labour Government.

In the circumstances, the Minister ought to give us an undertaking that he will at least consult his legal friends before the Report stage, and if, after consulting them, he feels it desirable, to delete this subsection from the Bill or amend it in some way so that it will not offend against what I regard as the very strong point made by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton.

Major Legge-Bourke

When I was listening to the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) just now, I wondered on which side he was sitting, because the speech he has just made was one I can remember hon. Members who now sit on this side of the Committee making over and over again in the 1945–50 Parliament, when his right hon. Friends were proposing the continuance of emergency laws and other powers of that nature giving them immense power, which they said they never wanted to use, that they hoped they would not have to use but might have to use some time and must have the power to be able to do so.

Mr. Paget

The hon. and gallant Member will have the courage to maintain his position now he is on the Government benches?

Major Legge-Bourke

If the hon. and learned Member will give me time to finish what I propose to say, I hope I can make it quite clear to him what I intend to do.

What the hon. and learned Member has said has drawn attention to one feature of this Bill which I do not very much like—the enormous power which it is giving to officials to use powers under the criminal law, as the hon. and learned Member said, against private citizens. I dislike that part of it. I hope the Minister will be prepared to look at it again to see if there is some way of clarifying exactly what the power of these people is to be.

I feel that this is a matter which we should never leave indefinite, but for the hon. and learned Member and other hon. Members to get up and try to plead this case—well, I suppose that a death-bed repentance is better than none.

Sir T. Dugdale

I am perfectly prepared to consult my legal advisers on this point.

Mr. Champion

Having regard to the way in which the Minister has received our representations, I gladly ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 4 and 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.