HC Deb 31 May 1949 vol 465 cc1997-2007

A notice in the prescribed form shall be printed upon every summons to the Court of Session, Scottish Land Court and the Sheriff Court, informing the defendant shortly of the provisions of this Act relating to legal aid.—[Lieut.-Commander Clark Hutchison.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

8.0 p.m.

Lieut.-Commander Hutchison

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

The Lord Advocate will remember that towards the end of the Committee stage, we on these benches moved two new Clauses which would have had the effect of providing the members of the public seeking assistance under the provisions of this Bill, with information as to their rights both in civil cases and in cases where criminal charges were involved. In replying to the discussions the right hon. and learned Gentleman said that he was not unsympathetic towards the intention of these Clauses. I would call his attention to the passages which appear in col. 379 of the OFFICIAL REPORT of 5th April. At the same time, the right hon. and learned Gentleman said that he felt that the object which we had in moving these Clauses could best be achieved by administrative action. However, he did say that he would give further consideration to this matter between the Committee and the Report stages. Unfortunately, we have not observed on the Order Paper any Government Amendment dealing with this point. Therefore, we have put down this new Clause.

It will be within the recollection of the House that both the Cameron Committee in Scotland and the Rushcliffe Committee in England recommended that the fullest publicity should be made available for the benefit of people who might wish to avail themselves of the services provided by this Bill. I hope, therefore, that at this stage the right hon. and learned Gentleman will see fit to give effect to the views expressed by these two extremely important committees by accepting this new Clause. Alternatively, it may be that as we do not muster any Scottish lawyers in our ranks on this side of the House, the words are not entirely satisfactory from the drafting point of view, and if the right hon. and learned Gentleman would give us an assurance that he would adopt some alternative wording when the Bill goes to another place which would have the same effect, that at least would be some encouragement.

Mr. Thornton-Kemsley (Aberdeen and Kincardine, Western)

I beg to second the Motion.

The long Title of this Bill says that it is to make legal aid and advice in Scotland more readily available for persons of small or moderate means. … It is those persons of small or moderate means who are least able to know what goes on in this House, and to whom, generally speaking, information about legislation is least available. The Bill provides for the making of legal aid and advice more readily available, but it does not provide for the dissemination of knowledge about this provision. It seems to us on this side of the House to be desirable not only that the benefits of the Bill should be made more readily available but that the knowledge that they are available should be as widely as possible disseminated among people who are likely to want to take advantage of them.

There are various ways in which that could be done, and we suggest a way which we think is a good one because it is a means of bringing home directly to men and women concerned the provisions of the Bill as they might affect them. If a man is served with a summons to appear before the sheriff court we want that summons to state upon the face of it the benefits that he can get, if he applies for them, from the provisions that we are here making. That seems to us to be the best way to do it and the best way, perhaps, of following the recommendations of the Cameron Committee that the knowledge of the availability of these provisions should be widely disseminated.

The Lord Advocate

When this point was raised in Committee, I gave an undertaking that we would look very carefully at it between that stage and the present stage with a view to deciding whether or not something of this nature could be incorporated in the Bill, and I can assure the House that we gave it very careful and anxious consideration. At the end of the day we decided that for the reasons explained in Committee it was undesirable to incorporate this provision within the ambit of the Bill, because while we desire and intend to give the widest publicity to the provisions of this Bill, we feel that this particular provision is merely one aspect that might have to be considered and would stand out in isolation if we incorporated it.

We feel that experience may show that we have got to vary the type of publication that we give to the provisions of this scheme and we do not think that we should be tied down in the provisions of the Bill to any one particular line. It would be possible under Clause 13 (1, b) for the court if need be, in regulating the procedure of any court or tribunal in relation to legal aid, to specify that any summons should contain a notice of this nature. It is much easier to do that by means of an act of adjournal or an act of sederunt rather than incorporate it as a mandatory direction in an Act of Parliament. If it were felt that this procedure was undesirable in so far as it cluttered up summonses unnecessarily, then it would require an amending Act of Parliament to remove it, whereas if provision were made for an act of adjournal or an act of sederunt it would be much easier to alter that if in practice it were found to be undesirable.

I said that this proposed provision would stand in isolation, and I think that is so particularly in relation to civil cases, because in civil cases the notice of the provision of legal aid would only be given on the summons which was served on the defender. Of course, we are very anxious to bring to the attention of all people their rights under this scheme, not only in relation to the right to defend actions but in relation to the right to prosecute actions. We also want to bring to their notice the right to legal aid in what we referred to in Committee as the intermediate stage. We also want to bring to their notice the right to obtain legal advice.

Accordingly, we feel that notification to the public of these rights can be done by a variety of administrative means. We hope to consult with the Law Society with a view to securing the widest possible publicity to the benefits of legal aid and advice provided by this Bill. Perhaps it would be indiscreet of me to indicate at this stage all that might be done in consultation with the Law Society, but I might give the House some prima facie view as to what might be done. We feel that there should be a general explanatory statement, which would be disseminated through the Press and probably over the wireless, indicating the nature and scope of legal aid and advice permissible under the Bill.

We also think that that could be supplemented by discussion and news articles; further, that a pamphlet in everyday language should be prepared outlining in detail the scheme of legal aid and advice, what it amounts to, who qualifies for it and what procedure should be followed by a person seeking legal aid or advice under the scheme. The widest distribution should be given to that pamphlet and it should be made available through the profession to public authorities, court officials, citizens' advice bureaux, police stations and so on.

Once the local committees are set up under the scheme it will be their duty to do such local advertising and publicising as they think necessary and desirable. In particular, in relation to criminal cases, we feel that by administrative action we can bring to the notice of the person charged with an offence all his rights of representation at the various stages without the multiplicity of notices suggested during the Committee stage.

I am confident it is better to leave this to administrative action rather than to pin-point one particular thing that ought to be done, incorporating it in the Bill so that an amending Bill will be necessary if it were felt that the provision was unnecessary. For these reasons, and not for the simple one in regard to the drafting—the Clause at present does not conform with Scottish terminology, because the word "defendant" is an English expression which is not found in the lexicon of Scottish legal jurisprudence—we are unable to accept this new Clause. I appreciate the intention behind the new Clause, but, as I have said, we take the view that this might best be done by administrative action as against putting it, in isolation, in the Bill.

8.15 p.m.

Mr. Emrys Hughes (South Ayrshire)

I am astounded that this new Clause should have been put down by the Opposition. I am surprised also to find the hon. Member for West Aberdeen (Mr. Thornton-Kemsley) actually supporting it and encouraging a wider dissemination among the public of the contents of the Bill. I am quite sure that this alarm of mine will be shared by the solicitors of Scotland, especially by an eminent solicitor who has made very strong criticisms of the Bill in the Scottish Press. He will read with horror that the Opposition are not only endorsing the provisions of this Bill, but actually proposing to carry on a kind of propaganda in favour of it. These fears will certainly not be allayed by the statement of the Lord Advocate that there are to be long explanations made in the Press and in pamphlets.

I have had sent to me a very interesting statement by a well-known and eminent member of the Scottish Law Agents Society of the Faculty of Procurators in Glasgow and of the Faculty of Procurators in Greenock, Mr. John J. Campbell, who has taken a leading part in the Scottish Press in opposing this Bill on the grounds that it is nothing more than rank Bolshevism and Communism. I am really surprised that the hon. Member for West Aberdeen is endorsing such proposals by supporting this new Clause. I should like to quote from this pamphlet in order that Members may have some idea that the persons really behind this Bill are the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) and Karl Marx.

Mr. Gallacher (Fife, West)

Will the hon. Member believe me when I say that I welcome this Bill with intelligent anticipation, to provide the victimised members of John Lewis and Company with free legal aid?

Mr. Emrys Hughes

Yes, and I should like to give a considered legal opinion of the organised solicitors of Scotland as outlined by this pamphlet. It is nothing less than an open letter to the Lord Advocate, which I hope he has read with the seriousness and consideration it deserves. It says of this Bill: These findings reflect the deep-rooted conviction of the whole profession that Scotland's ancient legal system is in danger of being swamped by Asiatic ideas, that her constitutional rights and historical traditions are being trampled in the mire of materialistic politics and that coercion is a weapon of Socialist planners which will be used ruthlessly to bludgeon truth and justice. That is the Bill the Opposition wish to strengthen by this new Clause. He goes on to say: Well, in the Christian faith, a majority is one plus God and, in that knowledge, the utmost resistance will be offered against the imposition of the Marxist plans of the anti-Christian elements which riddle, from top to bottom, not only the Haldane Society, but also the Labour Party of Great Britain. Far from opposing this Bill, the Opposition are now proposing to bring in a new Clause pointing out to every defendant in Scotland the provisions of this very suspicious Measure. He goes on to say——

Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Bowles)

I do not think the hon. Member need read much more of that pamphlet. He is making his case quite effectively without it.

Mr. Gallacher

But it is very interesting.

Mr. Emrys Hughes

Then, with your permission, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I shall merely conclude with the peroration of the pamphlet. It is a matter of profound regret for many of us to find you, as Lord Advocate, leading against your own brethren, the forces of aggression. It may be that you have not fully realised the sinister implications of the Bill, and that you are unaware of the revolutionary lengths to which the Socialist movement is committed. In the light of this letter I do hope you will find it possible to reconsider your own position. Naturally you have the right to make your own decision. The choice is clear-cut, Marx or Christ. In giving this final benediction to this Bill, I am surprised that the Opposition have aligned themselves with Marx.

Commander Galbraith (Glasgow, Pollok)

I am sure that we are deeply indebted to the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) for calling our attention to what Mr. Campbell has to say on this matter. He will remember that some time ago we moved an Amendment in Committee similar to the new Clause, and we still stand by it. We believe that everyone should have the utmost possible information on this subject and should have their attention particularly drawn to it. I could not help feeling that the Lord Advocate was, in a way, putting up a kind of special case. He was going to do all kinds of things with all of which I strongly agree. I approve entirely his suggestion as to what might be done in the Press and on the wireless, and by discussions, news articles and pamphlets, but in addition to that, I should like everyone who receives a summons or notice that an action is being taken against him to have the matter brought directly to his attention.

As I understood the Lord Advocate, he thought that that would clutter up the summons, but I cannot see that that would be the case, because it could be quite a brief note at the bottom of the summons. The Lord Advocate said that this would be something in isolation, but all the defendant will get is the piece of paper that comes to him. He will wonder what to do about it and might think it did not matter. I cannot see that any harm is being done if his attention is drawn directly to his rights under this Bill.

For that reason, unless more strong opinions can be put forward, I propose personally to press the Clause. I cannot see what objection there is to it; the whole thing can be done practically without any expense whatever. The defendant in every case will know that he has rights under the Bill. It does not seem to me that the right hon. and learned Gentleman's argument about

cluttering up the summons has anything to do with the argument. I am disappointed at what he has said, and I hope that even now, it is not too late to reconsider the matter.

Lieut.-Commander Hutchison

While appreciating the Lord Advocate's intention to deal with these matters by administration, I still do not feel that that is entirely acceptable. The hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) has said that we oppose the Bill. That is not strictly accurate, inasmuch as we did not divide on the Second Reading. Although there are parts of the Measure we dislike, once a Bill becomes an Act of Parliament it is the law of the land, and it is right and proper in a democratic country that that law should be known by as many citizens as possible.

Mr. Emrys Hughes

Is the hon. and gallant Member supporting the Bill?

Lieut.-Commander Hutchison

My hon. Friends and I are supporting its general principle. As I said, we did not divide against the Second Reading, although there are certain provisions which we do not like. If ever publicity was required in connection with a Statute, it is the Town and Country Planning Act for Scotland, which was recently passed. This Bill is complicated, too, and it is desirable, I think, that there should be publicity so that people may know their rights and what services are available to them. The Clause is reasonable, and is based on authoritative statements made in both the Cameron and Rushcliffe Committees' Reports, which form the basis of the Bill and the corresponding English Measure.

Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

The House divided: Ayes, 85; Noes, 222.

Division No. 160.] AYES [8.24 p.m.
Agnew, Cmdr. P. G. Digby, Simon Wingfield Harris, F. W. (Croydon, N.)
Amory, D. Heathcoat Dodds-Parker, A. D. Haughton, Colonel S. G. (Antrim)
Baldwin, A. E. Drewe, C. Head, Brig, A. H.
Beamish, Maj. T. V. H. Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond) Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon Sir C.
Birch, Nigel Duthie, W. S. Henderson, John (Cathcart)
Bower, N. Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Walter Hollis, M. C.
Boyd-Carpenter, J. A. Fletcher, W. (Bury) Howard, Hon. A.
Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr J. G. Foster, J. G. (Northwich) Hutchison, Lt-Cdr. Clark (Edin'gh, W.)
Challen, C. Fyfe, Rt Hon Sir D. P. M. Lambert, Hon. G.
Channon, H. Gage, C. Langford-Holt, J.
Cooper-Key, E. M. Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D. (Pollok) Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.
Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow) Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead) Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E. George, Maj Rt. Hn. G. Lloyd (P'ke) Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)
Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral) Orr-Ewing, I. L. Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.
Lucas, Major Sir J. Peto, Brig. C. H. M. Turton, R. H.
McFarlane, C. S. Ponsonby, Col. C. E. Tweedsmuir, Lady
Mackeson, Brig. H. R. Raikes, H. V. Vane, W. M. F.
Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley) Roberts, H. (Handsworth) Wakefield, Sir W. W.
Macpherson, N. (Dumfries) Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S) Walker-Smith, D.
Maitland, Comdr. J. W. Ropner, Col. L. Ward, Hon G. R.
Manningham-Buller, R. E. Sanderson, Sir F. Webbe, Sir H. (Abbey)
Marshall, D. (Bodmin) Savory, Prof. D. L. Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.)
Maude, J. C. Smithers, Sir W. White, Sir D. (Fareham)
Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester) Spearman, A. C. M. Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)
Neven-Spence, Sir B. Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Nicholson, G. Studholme, H. G. Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)
Noble, Comdr. A. H. P. Sutcliffe, H.
Odey, G. W. Thomas, Ivor (Keighley) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monntouth) Major Conant and
Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenport.
NOES
Adams, Richard (Balham) Gooch E. G. Messer, F.
Allen, A. C. (Bosworth) Grey, C. F. Middleton, Mrs L.
Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Grierson, E. Mitchison, G. R.
Alpass, J. H. Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley) Moody, A. S.
Anderson, A. (Motherwell) Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly) Morley, R.
Attewell, H. C. Guest, Dr. L. Haden Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C)
Awbery, S. S. Hale, Leslie Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)
Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B. Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil Murray, J. D.
Bacon, Miss A. Hamilton, Lieut,-Col. R. Nally, W.
Baird, J. Hannan, W. (Maryhill) Neal, H. (Claycross)
Balfour, A. Hardman, D. R. Noel-Baker, Capt F. E. (Brentford)
Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J. Hardy, E. A. Oldfield, W. H.
Battley, J. R. Harrison, J. Oliver, G. H.
Benson, G. Haworth, J. Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)
Bing, G. H. C. Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Kingswinford) Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)
Binns, J. Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick) Palmer, A. M. F.
Blenkinsop, A. Herbison, Miss M. Pargiter, G. A.
Blyton, W. R. Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth) Parker, J.
Boardman, H. Horabin, T. L. Parkin, B. T.
Bowen, R. Houghton, A. L. N. D. (Sowerby) Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)
Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl Exch'ge) Hubbard, T. Pearson, A.
Brook, D. (Halifax) Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.) Popplewell, E.
Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell) Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr) Porter, E. (Warrington)
Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen N.) Porter, G. (Leeds)
Brown, T. J. (Ince) Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.) Proctor, W. T.
Bruce, Maj. D. W. T. Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) Pryde, D. J.
Burden, T. W. Irving, W. J. (Tottenham N) Pursey, Comdr. H.
Burke, W. A. Janner, B. Randall, H. E.
Callaghan, James Jay, D. P. T. Ranger, J.
Carmichael, James Jeger, G. (Winchester) Rankin, J.
Champion, A. J. Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S. E.) Reid, T. (Swindon)
Cobb, F. A. Jenkins, R. H. Rhodes, H.
Cocks, F. S. Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool) Ridealgh, Mrs. M.
Collick, P. Keenan, W. Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)
Collins, V. J. Kendall, W. D. Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)
Colman, Miss G. M. Kenyon, C. Rogers, G. H. R.
Comyns, Dr. L. Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E. Ross, William (Kilmarnock)
Cook, T. F. Kinley, J. Royle, C.
Corlett, Dr. J. Lang, G. Scollan, T.
Cove, W. G. Lee, F. (Hulme) Segal, Dr S.
Daggar, G. Leslie, J. R. Shackleton, E. A. A.
Davies, Edward (Burslem) Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton) Sharp, Granville
Deer, G. Lewis, T. (Southampton) Silverman, J. (Erdington)
Diamond, J. Lindgren, G. S. Simmons, C. J.
Dobbie, W. Lipson, D. L. Skeffington, A. M.
Donovan, T. Lipton, Lt.-Col M. Smith, C. (Colchester)
Dugdale, J. (W Bromwich) Lyne, A. W. Smith, S. H. (Hull, S. W.)
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. McAdam, W. Snow, J. W.
Edwards, Rt. Hon. N. (Caerphilly) McAllister, G. Sorensen, R. W.
Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel) McEntee, V. La T. Soskice, Rt. Hon Sir Frank
Evans, John (Ogmore) McGhee, H. G. Sparks, J. A.
Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury) Mack, J. D. Steele, T.
Ewart, R. McKay, J. (Wallsend) Strauss, Rt. Hon G. R. (Lambeth)
Fairhurst, F. Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N. W) Stubbs, A. E.
Farthing, W. J. McKinlay, A. S. Swingler, S.
Fernyhough, E. Maclean, N. (Govan) Sylvester, G. O.
Field, Capt. W. J. McLeavy, F. Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)
Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E) MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles) Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Forman, J. C. MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)
Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N. Macpherson, T. (Romford) Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)
Gallacher, W. Mainwaring, W. H. Thomas, George (Cardiff)
Ganley, Mrs. C. S. Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Thomas, John R. (Dover)
George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey) Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield) Thurtle, Ernest
Gibbins, J. Mann, Mrs. J. Timmons, J.
Gitzean, A. Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping) Titterington, M. F.
Glanville, J. E. (Consett) Medland, H. M. Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G.
Ungoed-Thomas, L. White, C. F. (Derbyshire, W.) Williams, W. R. (Heston)
Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst) White, H. (Derbyshire, N. E.) Wills, Mrs. E. A.
Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.) Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W. Wise, Major F. J.
Watkins, T. E. Wigg, George Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.
Webb, M. (Bradford, C.) Willey, F. T. (Sunderland) Woods, G. S.
Weitzman, D. Williams, D. J. (Neath) Yates, V. F.
Wells, W. T. (Walsall) Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove) Young, Sir R. (Newton)
West, D. G. Williams, Ronald (Wigan)
Wheatley, Rt. Hon. John (Ed'n'gh, E.) Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Mr. Collindridge and Mr. Bowden.