§ 25. Mr. Peter Thorneycroftasked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that in the large majority of cases of compulsory acquisition of road haulage businesses which had taken place up to 30th June, 1949, no provisional amount of compensation had been agreed, outstanding amounts of cash have not been paid and Transport Stock has not been issued; and what directions of a general character he will give to the Commission in order to obviate the resultant and widespread hardship thereby caused.
§ Mr. BarnesI do not consider it necessary for me to give any direction to the Commission on this matter. My reasons involve a rather long statement which I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate in HANSARD.
§ Mr. ThorneycroftWould not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is disgraceful that these men's businesses are being taken from them and they are not being paid the compensation to which Parliament said they were entitled?
§ Mr. BarnesI do not agree with anything of the kind and I suggest that the hon. Member looks at my statement, in which the reasons are fully set out.
§ Mr. W. J. BrownIs the Minister aware that not only big road hauliers but men in a small way of business have had their businesses taken over from 1st April and have not yet received either the 90 per cent. compensation they were 1796 supposed then to get, or even been able to make effective arrangements with the Ministry for valuation of their assets? Does he think that is satisfactory?
§ Mr. ThorneycroftAre we to understand that the statement which the Minister proposes to circulate in HANSARD is more than a mere apology for inaction on the part of the Government, and contains some positive proposals for dealing with these cases of hardship? Does the right hon. Gentleman's answer include provisions of that kind?
§ Mr. RentonIn view of the great importance of the matter would the Minister consider making his statement at the end of Questions, instead of publishing it in HANSARD tomorrow?
§ Mr. ThorneycroftOn a point of Order. The right hon. Gentleman asked my permission and the permission of the House, Mr. Speaker, to circulate his answer in HANSARD. So far as I am concerned, I do not feel that I can grant permission.
§ Mr. SpeakerMr. Carmichael.
§ Mr. ThorneycroftFurther to my point of Order. If the permission of the House is not granted—
§ Mr. SpeakerThe right hon. Gentleman merely said that he proposed to circulate his answer; I did not think he asked permission.
§ Mr. ThorneycroftWith great respect, Sir, I distinctly heard the right hon. Gentleman say what I think is common form in this matter—that with the permission of the House he proposed to circulate his answer in HANSARD. Surely that is a matter for the House, and not for the Minister.
§ Mr. SpeakerIt is for the Minister to decide how he chooses to answer. I cannot direct him how he should answer.
§ Mr. Godfrey NicholsonWhen the Minister says, "With the permission of the hon. Member, I propose to circulate the answer in HANSARD," surely it is up to the hon. Member concerned either to give or refuse permission, as he thinks fit. If permission is refused, could not the Minister read the answer now?
§ Mr. SpeakerI disagree. I did not think the Minister asked for permission. He merely said that he would circulate his statement.
§ Mr. BarnesI did say, Mr. Speaker, "With the permission of the hon. Member."
§ Mr. W. J. BrownMay I draw your attention, Sir, to the fact that three supplementary questions have been addressed to the Minister, and that not one has been answered. Could we not have the reply at the end of Questions?
§ Mr. ThorneycroftI do not wish to detain the House, but the right hon. Gentleman has fairly admitted that he asked for my permission. That permission not being granted, I feel, knowing the right hon. Gentleman's courtesy, that he will make his statement either now or at the end of Questions. There are hundreds of cases of hardship.
§ Mr. SpeakerI cannot direct the Minister. If he chooses to read the answer, he can.
§ At the end of Questions—
§ Mr. BarnesThe following is the statement to which I referred.
The British Transport Commission cannot make payments on account of compensation until the properties affected by the notice of acquisition have been identified and agreed and a provisional ascertainment made. The position at 30th June, 1949, was that 469 road haulage undertakings had been transferred, of which 123 were taken over only in June and 131 in May. Of the total of 469 there were 35 cases in which the extent of the transfer had not been agreed and 148 cases in which the Commission were awaiting accounts and other information from the transferors. Provisional ascertainments in 130 cases had been calculated, or were in hand, and payment on account will be made as soon as legal title is verified and other essential formalities are completed. The remaining cases were awaiting valuers' reports and other information.
I am satisfied that the intention of the Commission is that all acquired undertakings shall receive a payment on account at the earliest possible moment, and that there is no need for me to issue directions: Machinery has been set up to expedite settlements, and I am informed 1798 that undertakings which might otherwise suffer hardship are being offered an immediate payment in respect of their cash option. Speedy progress in respect both of acquired undertakings and of those yet to be acquired will depend largely on the co-operation of the transferors in quickly supplying the necessary information.
§ Mr. ThorneycroftIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of these men have had their businesses expropriated, and that they have perhaps been offered jobs as drivers, or perhaps no job at all? The result is that a lot of these men have hardly any money to live on, and certainly are quite unable to make any plans for the future arrangement of their lives, having lost the business on which they have depended for many years. Cannot the Minister do something to speed up this matter?
§ Mr. BarnesI do not consider that there is any substance in that accusation because, up to 30th June, advances up to £2,000 in cash had been made in 81 cases—this applies to the small type of haulier to which the supplementary question obviously refers—and I venture to suggest that if these figures are analysed, and one takes into account the great variety of businesses, it will be found that the Commission have rapidly established considerable machinery to deal with this problem.
In addition, I would say that while I am satisfied that the vast majority of cases are being dealt with in a businesslike and expeditious way, if by any chance there should be some individual cases that have not been dealt with as rapidly as possible, I am confident that the British Transport Commission will look into them, because they are exceedingly desirous that in no case should unnecessary hardship be involved. However, as I stated earlier, in 81 cases advances have been made up to 30th June and, further, the British Transport Commission have now made arrangements to issue British Transport Stock on a monthly basis instead of a half-yearly basis.
§ Mr. W. J. BrownIs the Minister satisfied, first, that he has enough valuing staff to get the valuing process completed within a reasonable time, and, secondly, is he satisfied that the valuing staff knows anything about the Transport Act? I 1799 have cases which suggest that he has not enough valuers, because they have not even begun, and in some cases they do not appear to know the Act.
§ Mr. BarnesIt is quite easy for an hon. Member to make statements of that kind on the Floor of the House with that inference behind them.
§ Mr. BarnesIf it is a charge, I would suggest that the hon. Member brings that charge down to details and submits them to the British Transport Commission—
§ Lord John HopeWhat about the Minister?
§ Mr. BarnesWell, either to myself or to the British Transport Commission. It is the British Transport Commission who engage their valuers, and I do not think the hon. Member is entitled to make a public charge that when they appoint a professional person, they do not know whom they are appointing.
§ Mr. BrownMay I see the Minister at the end of Questions and I will then produce the two cases upon which I base the charge?
§ Mr. RentonIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that many hauliers who are anxious to get these formalities completed have been unable to find the representatives of the Commission with whom they could deal, and will he kindly see to it that that matter is dealt with? Will he also tell the House how many more months he expects to elapse before acquisition is completed in the 400-odd cases which he mentioned?
§ Mr. BarnesIf the hon. Gentleman will study the details of the reply I have given, he will see that one of the biggest difficulties the Commission are up against here is that the requisite information is not submitted speedily and efficiently enough for them to come to their decision.
§ Mr. ShepherdIs the Minister aware that many small hauliers are being compelled to accept prices that really amount to little more than scrap value, and will he tell the House what redress he proposes to offer to men who are being put in this position?
§ Mr. BarnesThat is a political statement, incorrect in character, and not justified by the facts. This House established the conditions under which these businesses would be acquired.
§ Mr. ThorneycroftIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that all we are concerned to see is that the minimum amount of really grave hardship is caused until we can get into power and reverse the whole of this position?