HC Deb 11 November 1948 vol 457 cc1731-4
78. Mr. Burke

asked the Minister of Food if his attention has been drawn to recent cases in which fines were imposed for continuous and serious contravention of food regulations; and if he will take steps to enable more severe penalties likely to protect the health and welfare of the public to be imposed in cases where large profits are made by the sale of diseased horseflesh for human consumption.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Dr. Edith Summerskill)

I am aware of the cases to which my hon. Friend refers and in view of the widespread interest which they have aroused I would like to say that our enforcement officers have paid special attention to knackers' yards during recent months but have found no other case of this kind. In the recent cases some charges were laid under orders made by my right hon. Friend which are enforceable by our officers, but the main charges were laid under the Food and Drugs Act. The responsibility for enforcing this Act rests with local authorities and we rely on them to exercise constant vigilance to prevent such cases remaining undetected. With this object, Ministry of Food officers have been instructed to co-operate to the fullest extent with officers of the local authorities.

To strengthen the control over the disposal of meat from knackers' yards, my right hon. Friend has made an order which comes into force on 19th December and which requires anyone carrying on a knackers' yard in England and Wales to hold a licence from the Ministry of Food and to keep records of transactions. My right hon. Friend will also consider what further measures can be taken to ensure that meat products are manufactured under hygienic conditions. Whether to impose fine or imprisonment is entirely within the discretion of the trying court, but the fines imposed in this case were severe and I trust that they will suffice to deter anyone who has it in mind to endanger the public health in this way. The position will, however, be carefully watched and if it should be established that the maximum penalties imposable under the existing law are insufficient to safeguard the public welfare, the position will be considered further in conjunction with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health.

Mr. Burke

Might I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, which I am sure will give great confidence and reassurance throughout the country?

Mr. Tolley

Would not my hon. Friend agree that in some cases the imposition of a fine, however large, is no penalty upon the offender; and in particularly severe cases is it not right that new instructions should be given to magistrates trying those cases that prison is the only penalty in order to prevent this happening?

Dr. Summerskill

I think that the fine these men are called upon to pay is within the region of £2,000.

Mr. Joynson-Hicks

Can the hon. Lady tell us what consultation she had before deciding upon the further restrictions which she is to impose upon the knackers' yards, and also upon the companies producing meat products?

Dr. Summerskill

Does the hon. Gentleman mean before we introduce this new order—the Knackers' Yards Order?

Mr. Joynson-Hicks

indicated assent.

Dr. Summerskill

We consulted the different Departments, and we thought that this was the best way to approach the matter.

Earl Winterton

Would the hon. Lady make it quite clear to her hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Tolley) that it would be most improper for a Department of Government to suggest to magistrates the penalties they should impose under an Act of Parliament or a regulation?

Mr. Tolley

Is a fine sufficient?

Earl Winterton

Will the hon. Lady answer that question, because she was asked?

Dr. Summerskill

I do not think it is right for me to reprimand my hon. Friend.

Earl Winterton

Does the hon. Lady then accept the position put by her hon. Friend, that it is the duty of her Department to give instructions to magistrates?

Dr. Summerskill

No, of course, not; but I think it is quite healthy that all publicity should be given to the supplementary question asked by my hon. Friend.

Mrs. Castle

Following upon that last supplementary question, might I ask whether my hon. Friend is aware that a large section of public opinion has been shocked by the fact that a woman has recently been given six months' imprisonment for forging a birth certificate, whereas in a case like this merely a monetary penalty is to be imposed?

Colonel Gomme-Duncan

Would the Parliamentary Secretary not be led away by that last supplementary question from the really important point of principle, which is, that no Government Department should give instructions to magistrates?