HC Deb 13 February 1948 vol 447 cc711-23
Mr. H. Wilson

I beg to move, in page 6, line 20, to leave out "five," and to insert "seven."

Mr. Speaker

Perhaps it might be for the convenience of the House if we discussed this Amendment together with the following Amendments which deal with the same point.

Mr. Wilson

The constitution of the Films Council is a matter on which some Members expressed concern, both on the Second Reading and during the Committee stage, when I said that we had a reasonably open mind about it and wanted to hear the views of right hon. and hon. Members before putting any more concrete recommendations to the House. In Committee, I indicated the kind of Films Council which I thought would best meet the wishes which have been expressed, and these Amendments carry out that intention. It means that the Films Council will be a bigger body than we contemplated on the Second Reading, but in view of the anxiety expressed, particularly about the number of independent members, we though it right to make these changes.

It is now proposed to increase the number of independent members to seven, and I can give the House an assurance that at least one of the seven will be a Scotsman or a Scotswoman. Instead of putting anything into the Bill, however, I propose to look after this myself by my powers of appointment. It is proposed to substitute five exhibitors for four, and to lay it down explicitly that one of the exhibitors must represent exhibitors in Scotland, who have their own special problems and who have been particularly helpful between the Committee and Report stages.

We also propose to have four representatives of persons employed by makers, renters or exhibitors—a point which was pressed by Members on both sides of the Committee. Finally, we propose to make it permissible for people who are not members of the Council to be co-opted as additional members of the Committee of the Council itself. This provision will enable the Council, if they think fit, to adopt an additional Scottish exhibitor, besides the one already on the Council, to serve on a special committee to review Scottish quota defaults—a point pressed on us both inside and outside the Chamber. I shall be prepared to ask the new council to consider the advisability of setting up a special Scottish defaults committee, which they can do with their full-time Scottish exhibitor member and with the co-opted members.

The only other assurance I have to give—because I did not think it necessary to put down an Amendment—is that one of the four member producers will be appointed to represent makers of the specialised films not intended for exhibition as first features. I hope that the House will agree that in the Amendment we have met the wishes that were expressed.

Commander Galbraith

The Amendments on which the right hon. Gentleman has spoken are to a considerable extent connected with Scottish views, and we appreciate the thought that he has given to this aspect of the matter It was raised on the Second Reading Debate by the hon. and gallant Member for Argyll (Major McCallum) and the hon. And gallant Member for Perth (Colonel Gomme-Duncan). They made it abundantly clear that this was not a parochial matter, neither was it in any way connected with national sentiment, but was put forward because they did not feel that the Cinematograph Films Council, as laid down, could possibly take into account Scottish feelings, views and tastes. That was emphasised during the later stages by hon. Members from all parts of the House. There was, indeed, a most extraordinary alignment. When one finds the hon. and gallant Members for Argyll and Perth acting together and expressing the same views as the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher), the hon. Member for North Edinburgh (Mr. Willis), the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. N. Maclean) and others, there is, I think, some weight behind the views expressed. While we appreciate what the right hon. Gentleman has done, we do not think that he has gone far enough. We shall wait with interest to see how this matter works out.

I am grateful that the right hon. Gentleman has, in particular, taken into account the fears expressed with regard to quota defaults. I think it was on that point that my hon. Friends and other hon. Members had particular anxiety. That anxiety was strengthened because of the number of small independent operators in Scotland. We feel that they require the utmost possible protection. I would like to have seen it in the Bill that the seven independent members which the right hon. Gentleman now proposes should at least include one member from Scotland. He has said that he will see to that himself, but, naturally, we would rather have seen it in the Bill than leave it to the discretion of the Minister, whoever he may be from time to time.

The same applies to the separate Scottish committee which the right hon. Gentleman suggests that the new Council should set up. I do not know why that cannot have been written in the Bill. Perhaps, if the Parliamentary Secretary replies he will give his reasons for these matters being left out of the Bill. Speaking for my hon. Friends on this side of the House, we are very doubtful whether the measures which the Minister now proposes are sufficient to met our point of view. We shall wait to see how they work out, but we feel disappointed that he has not felt able to go further than he has done.

Mr. Willis (Edinburgh, North)

I would like to take the opportunity of thanking the President of the Board of Trade for having come some distance to meet the demands and representations of Scottish Members on both sides of the House. I, along with some of my colleagues on this side, have put down an Amendment to include a Scottish independent member in the Bill. As my right hon. Friend has given an assurance that he intends to appoint at least one of the independent members of the Films Council to represent the point of view of Scotland, I do not think we shall need to press for the Amendment. I should, however, like to have seen that included in the Bill, because, as the hon. and gallant Member for Pollok (Commander Galbraith) has said, it is all very well for the present President of the Board of Trade to make a promise that there will be a member representing Scottish interests, but that is no guarantee that future Presidents of the Board of Trade will be so sympathetic to Scotland.

Scotland, undoubtedly, has its own particular problems. We are glad that the President has gone some way to meet us, but still have doubts as to whether he has gone far enough. Perhaps he can assist us by giving some idea of what he has in mind concerning the sub-committee that will be responsible for quota defaults. If we could have some clear indication of what he intends, that would go some distance towards allaying the fears of many small Scottish exhibitors.

We have down also an Amendment to reduce still further the number of renters on the Films Council. Owing to the situation in Scotland, where there is a large percentage of small exhibitors, there is a great fear concerning the composition of the Films Council. We would like to see the number of producers and renters balanced as against the number representing the exhibitors. That is not quite done, although the balance is fairer under the new proposals. I would like the right hon. Gentleman to look at this again to see if he cannot do something to make the balance still better. If lie could do that, he would undoubtedly go a long way towards meeting the request made during the Committee stage of the Bill.

11.45 a.m.

Mr. Emrys Hughes (South Ayrshire)

The hon. Member for North Edinburgh (Mr. Willis) has expressed some honest doubts which remind me of a line from an English poet: There lives more faith in honest doubt, Believe me, than in half the creeds. We do not doubt the intention of the President of the Board of Trade. I have every confidence that so long as he is at the Board of Trade he will keep his promises. We would have liked to see the old idea of a Scottish Films Council embodied in the Bill. I believe that the hon. and gallant Member for Pollock (Commander Galbraith) lives in my constituency and that I represent him very faithfully, but this is the first occasion on which we have agreed. I can assure the President of the Board of Trade that if the hon. and gallant Member for Pollok and I agree, there is unanimous opinion in Scotland about the necessity for Scotland being adequately represented, and having its point of view expressed on the Films Council.

An attempt was made to appease us on the Committee stage by the revelation that Sir Alexander Korda was to go to Scotland to make a film in which Will Fyffe was to represent Bonnie Prince Charlie. That rather alarmed me, because we do not want to see the romantic life of Scotland portrayed on the films so much as the realism of Scottish life. I would have been much more appeased if the hon. Member had been able to say that Sir Alexander Korda or some Scottish producer was going to produce a film of "The House with the Green Shutters" or something embodying grim realism, instead of the romantic side of Scottish life. I am sure that we shall get fair play from the President of the Board of Trade, although I am not sure whether we should get fair play if the hon. and gallant Member for Pollok were elevated to that position.

In view of the assurances which we have been given, we do not propose to press the Amendment, with the reservation that we think that one out of seven is not adequate representation for Scotland. I know that the Scottish exhibitors are very anxious to get fair play before what they call an English jury. I know what some of these English juries are like. I have been before them in another capacity, and I know no worse jury in the whole of civilisation than a special jury of the City of London, especially when considering questions of libel. I know what it is to be tried by an English jury, and Scotsmen have been quite reasonable in asking that they be tried by their own fellow countrymen.

Mr. Collins

If I may rescue this discussion from being an all Scottish occasion, I would like to say a few words on the point embodied in the Amendment standing in the name of my hon. Friends and myself; in line 24 after "four," insert: including adequate representation of the makers of films other than those exhibited as first feature films. My right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade has given an assurance that at least one of the four makers of British films who are to be on the Films Council shall be makers of documentary and films other than first feature films. It is the same kind of assurance as he has given in relation to other matters; I am sure we will all accept that assurance in the knowledge that it will be implemented. However, in our Amendment we have not suggested that any particular number should be on the Council. We have merely proposed that there shall be "adequate representation," and I do not understand why my right hon. Friend has not felt able to accept that Amendment. We know that in the past there was on the Council one member of the documentary and specialised film industry. That was in the days when the right hon. Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley), and later when my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton), held the office of President of the Board of Trade. Then the Council lost that single member. That is an example of representation by the makers of specialised films which was actually lost from the Film Council. Obviously, that can happen again.

While I am not prepared to argue whether one or two representatives should be on the Council, it is obvious that no representative at all cannot be considered as adequate representation. All we are asking is that words should be inserted to ensure that there shall be adequate representation from the section of the industry to which I have referred. The Board of Trade, on the advice of the Films Council, would be able to define what was adequate representation. It is from that section of the industry that a great deal of educative work has come in the past, and will, doubtless, come in the future. The presence of a member of that section of the industry on the Films Council could do much to ensure the general improvement of films and might even avoid the kind of blunders of which the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) was complaining. That sort of thing could not have happened if the Films Council had at least one member representing makers of films other than first feature films. Therefore, I hope that these words, which are quite innocuous but which may be very useful in future, or something similar, will be accepted and that we shall not have to depend indefinitely over a period of 10 years on continued assurances which, in changed circumstances, may not be implemented, thus having a had effect on the specialised section of the industry.

Mr. Eric Fletcher (Islington, East)

I rise merely for the purpose of expressing my thanks to the President of the Board of Trade for the Amendments which he has introduced. In accepting the suggestions put forward by some of my hon. Friends and myself, and by hon. Members opposite, my right hon. Friend has met the opinion which was expressed in all quarters, and has produced a more balanced composition of the Cinematograph Films Council than was provided in the Bill as drafted. The changes which are now effected will go a long way, if not the whole way, towards meeting the criticisms which have been made by those interested in the industry. The addition of two independent persons is in itself very satisfactory, as is the addition of one more representative of the exhibitors to provide a more adequate representation of the diverse exhibiting interests in the trade. I am also indebted to the President of the Board of Trade for extending to the whole industry the classes of employees from which four representatives, instead of two as at present, will in future, be appointed to the Council.

I have listened with sympathy to the observations made by hon. Members representing Scottish constituencies. In reply I would say that I think that Scottish interests have been very reasonably treated in the Bill, inasmuch as it provides that there shall be at least one out of five representatives drawn from Scotland. I think experience shows that whether or not there are rigid provisions in an Act of Parliament for Scottish interests to be specifically represented, when a President of the Board of Trade or any other Minister makes appointments of this kind to a body which is concerned with trade and matters of interest to Scotland, Ireland, Wales and England. care is always taken to ensure that Scottish interests are looked after.

Mr. George Thomas (Cardiff Central)

They are looked after mote often than Welsh interests.

Mr. Fletcher

I do not think Welsh interests are ignored any more than those of other parts of the country. Hon Members need have no doubt that the interests of Scotland and other parts of the country will be safeguarded by the President of the Board of Trade in selecting representatives to the Films Council.

Mr. Scott-Elliot

I wish to say a few words in support of my hon. Friend the Member for East Islington (Mr. E. Fletcher). I speak as a Scotsman who is anxious that there shall be Scottish representation. I did not associate myself with the remarks of the hon. and gallant Member for Argyll (Major McCallum), but I was entirely in sympathy with him.

I am also concerned with the interests of makers of documentary and short films. Scotsmen have statutory representation, but the makers of documentary and short films have no statutory representation. Of course, they have had a satisfactory undertaking from the President of the Board of Trade so far as he is concerned, but obviously he cannot bind any other President of the Board of Trade. I believe it may be necessary to have more than one representative of the makers of documentary and short films on the Films Council because it may very well be that this rather difficult question of minimum rentals will arise. I know that my right hon. Friend promised to refer this matter to the Committee of Inquiry which he is to set up, but that will take a very long time, and the subject of minimum rentals is a burning question.

Only when the documentary and short film is put on the same basis as that of the first feature film—a proposition from which I do not think the Board of Trade can dissent—will the makers of documentary and short films be in a position to hold their own in the film industry of this country. I suggest to my right hon. Friend that it may be necessary to have more than one representative of documentary and short films because if there is only one representative, he will be in a hopeless minority and unable to make any headway with his case.

12.0 noon.

Mr. H. Wilson

With the permission of the House, I will reply to the points which have been raised. In connection with the representation of Scotland, I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) that it is an important event when he and the hon. and gallant Member for Pollok (Commander Galbraith) agree. When they do agree on anything, the House should look at it very carefully. Although they had confidence that I will carry out my assurances on the matter of appointment, both wanted some guarantee as to what future Presidents of the Board of Trade might or might not do. The best guarantee we can possibly have is the presence of so many active and vocal Scottish Members in this House. I cannot imagine a future President of the Board of Trade daring to go back on those assurances because he will know that he will have a very rough time at the hands of the hon. Member for South Ayrshire and so many other hon. Members.

Mr. Lyttelton

Suppose the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) is not here.

Mr. Wilson

If it is a question of the hon. Member for South Ayrshire not being here, I would ask the right hon. Gentleman opposite to think a little about what was said of the possibility of the hon. and gallant Member for Pollok succeeding to his position, because he has not shown any signs of crossing the House and even when he does he will have to work his passage. The points raised about the danger of the late Will Fyffe being cast to represent Bonnie Prince Charlie are outside the scope of this provision, and many of them ought to be dealt with by the Scots themselves expanding their own production industry. That is not a problem for the Films Council. I will keep the question of the default committee under review.

The point raised about the unsuitability of British films for many Scottish cinemas and the possibility that a lower quota would have to be fixed must fall to the ground. However unsuitable British films are for Scottish cinemas, I cannot imagine that they are any more foreign than Hollywood films. If one had to admit that, it would raise all kinds of difficulties such as my hon. Friend the Member for Central Cardiff (Mr. G. Thomas) would, I am sure, like to raise about Wales.

When I first looked at the Amendment about renters, I thought that perhaps one renter rather than two renters would be appropriate in view of the fact that the renters' quota obligations had been abolished, but when I went into it I became certain that we must keep two. One represents American companies and the other British companies and it would be wrong at this stage to suggest pushing the American renter off the Council. That would be regarded as a highly provocative thing to do and all kinds of inappropriate motives would be read into it. I can tell the House that the American renter has never interfered in purely British matters, such as British default matters. I can also confirm that the contributions of the American renters to the Council have always been helpful and constructive, or anyhow almost always It would therefore be valuable to keep the American representative on the Council, but I would not consider keeping the American representative on and pushing off the British one, and I therefore see no alternative to keeping them both on.

Mr. Willis

The point at issue is that the renters and producers have a bigger majority on the Council than the exhibitors, and in view of the fact that the renters have no obligations concerning the quota and that all the obligations are on the exhibitors, there is a great fear about this majority.

Mr. Wilson

If my hon. Friend will look at the way in which the various sides are likely to break up, he will see that a very careful balance has been preserved. I should very much deprecate any suggestion that we should disturb this balance, which represents the general sense of the views of the House.

My hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. Collins) referred to an Amendment to secure adequate representation of the documentary and other specialised producers. I can think of no vaguer phrase than that to write into a Bill on this point. When he said that I should take the advice of the Films Council as to what "adequate" means he was asking for trouble. I cannot possibly ask the Films Council what representation there should be of the documentary producers because the Films Council will be set up and will already include representatives of documentary and other specialised film producers. In any case, there is always a danger that the Films Council would say that adequate representation of this branch is not practicable. I should be in a difficult situation and he would be worse off than he will be under my present proposals.

I can certainly undertake, as I have undertaken, to see that there is one representative of this branch of the industry, though I cannot accept the view of my hon. Friend the Member for Accrington (Mr. Scott-Elliot) when he interprets "adequate" as meaning two representatives. It would be a completely wrong balance to have two of the four producers from that branch. I have agreed that that branch has very difficult problems and have indicated how they may best be dealt with. My hon. Friend must not be greedy and ask for two representatives. I hope he will be satisfied with one. I am certainly prepared to consider inserting some form of words to ensure that there will always be representation. I do not like the phrase "adequate representation," but perhaps new words can be introduced in another place.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In line 20, at end, insert: (b) the number of members appointed as representing exhibitors shall be five instead of four, of whom one shall be appointed as representing exhibitors in Scotland.

In line 21, leave out "respectively."

In line 22, leave out from "films," to "shall," in line 23.

In line 24, leave out first "each."—[Mr. H. Wilson.]

Mr. H. Wilson

I beg to move, in hoe 24 to leave out the second "each," and to insert: and (d) four members shall be appointed as representing persons employed by makers, renters or exhibitors of British films instead of two members representing persons employed by makers of British films. (2) Any committee of the Council may include persons who are not members of the Council, and any such committee may co-opt as additional members of the committee such persons, whether members of the Council or not, as the committee may determine.

Question, "That the word 'each' stand part of the Bill," put and negatived.

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

Mr. Lyttelton

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to leave out the proposed new Subsection (2).

This is a small point. This is an occasion where the Government's second thoughts have been worse than their first. They have added words to the Clause which would permit any committee of the Council to co-opt anybody. After listening to an argument from the President of the Board of Trade about the vagueness of such words as "adequate," it is rather surprising to find an Amendment of this kind which might cause any sub-committee of the Council to proliferate all over the country and include any kind of member connected with the trade or with Scotland, Wales, Ireland, the United Nations or anything else. These words are quite unnecessary, a blot on the Bill are vague and undefined, and might well be excluded.

Mr. Wilson

I could not understand what was in the right hon. Gentleman's mind when he put down this Amendment, but I do now. The idea of the Government Amendment was to make it possible to deal with the Scottish problem by co-opting Scottish exhibitors to serve on a Scottish Defaults Committee. I do not think it likely that the Films Council would be likely to set up committees all over the country, to co-opt all kinds of extraordinary people, and to give wrongheaded advice to the Board of Trade on many of the subjects about which they are required to advise us, particularly bearing in mind the constitution of the Council, which is a delicate balance of the various interests in the industry, include- ing certain independent members. These I hope the right hon. Gentleman will feel, when he sees who are chosen, are reasonable-minded people.

However, now that I have heard what the right hon. Gentleman is worried about, I agree that theoretically there is a possibility that such things might happen, although I cannot imagine it, and I will see that the point he has in mind is covered.

Mr. E. Fletcher

I would support the Amendment moved by the right hon. Gentleman. It seems to me that there are constitutional objections to the proposal made by the President of the Board of Trade because, as it stands, enabling any committees appointed by the Cinematograph Films Council to co-opt outside persons. Bearing in mind the considerable and increased responsibility of the Council under this Bill—because in future the President can only act in certain directions after taking its advice—it is undesirable in general that those committees should be able, without any control either by the Council, the President of the Board of Trade, or this House, to co-opt additional members at random, which might well destroy the balance we have been taking such careful pains to ensure. Therefore, I was glad to hear that the President will reconsider the matter. If the only purpose of this Amendment is to enable the particular Scottish Default Committee to co-opt, where necessary, Scottish exhibitors, I hope that language can be chosen which will limit the powers in the Bill to that specific purpose, and not extend the operations of the Council in a way which seems objectionable in principle and might well provide difficulties in practice.

Earl Winterton

I suggest we might leave the matter where it has been placed by the spokesman of the Government. My right hon. Friend, myself and the industry are fully satisfied that the right hon. Gentleman will give sympathetic consideration to it.

Mr. Lyttelton

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment to the proposed Amendment.

Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Proposed words there inserted in the Bill.