HC Deb 08 December 1948 vol 459 cc377-80
33. Mr. Edward Evans

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if he is now in a position to make a statement on 2nd Class Boy Gordon Lindsey who was drowned during a swimming exercise at Shotley.

Mr. J. Dugdale

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I made to my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr. Tiffany) on 24th November.

Mr. Evans

While not wishing to pursue this tragic and unfortunate incident further, may I ask my hon. Friend whether he can give us an assurance that the training of officers and instructors in charge of young boys will be extended further than it is at present and go beyond the mere physical training of these boys?

Mr. Dugdale

I am not quite sure what my hon. Friend means by that question. I am satisfied that the officers concerned there are fully trained, and that they did show great restraint and great care in their training of this boy.

34. Mr. Attewell

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what were the methods of keeping afloat taught to the late 2nd Class Boy Gordon Lindsey during his period of instruction.

Mr. J. Dugdale

Lindsey received instructions in breast stroke, swimming on his back, floating on his back, and in treading water.

Captain Marsden

Does not the hon. Gentleman think that there was something wrong in this boy's make-up, so that his original examination for the Navy should have stopped his entering the Service at all?

Mr. Dugdale

No, Sir. It really was a most unusual case. It is a quite extraordinary thing that this particular combination of circumstances should have resulted in death. I have been assured by an eminent pathologist that cases such as this are exceedingly rare.

35. Mr. Attewell

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if the parents of the late 2nd Class Boy Gordon Lindsey were present at the inquiry into the circumstances of his death; if the parents were represented at the inquiry: and by whom.

Mr. J. Dugdale

Lindsey's parents were not present or represented at the Naval Board of Inquiry. The circumstances of the boy's death had previously been fully investigated at a coroner's inquest, which the boy's three brothers attended.

Mr. Tiffany

Is my hon. Friend aware of the fact that this boy's mother—he has no father—was not present at the inquiry, and that she and I paid a visit to H.M.S. "Ganges" last Friday, and that we were received with every kindness and consideration by the captain, officers and boys? Will my hon. Friend consider the setting up of a commission, or a committee, of Members from all parts of the House to go into this matter in order to remove what is a definite misapprehension in the minds of many of us in relation to this incident?

Mr. Dugdale

I do not think there is any need to set up a committee, but I am sure that my noble Friend and I would be only too happy to see any hon. Members who would like to discuss the matter.

Mr. J. P. L. Thomas

In view of the public anxiety about this case, will the hon. Gentleman reconsider his reply of a few weeks ago, and put a copy of the findings in the Library?

Mr. Dugdale

We consider that we have to treat the findings of these inquiries as privileged documents. This consideration does not apply only to this inquiry, but to every inquiry generally. We have to be quite certain that the people giving evidence know that they are giving it in confidence. That consideration concerns not only this inquiry. It is a principle applied generally to inquiries. I think I ought to add that this inquiry was over and above the full public inquiry which took place at the coroner's inquest, at which there was no question whatever of any ill-treatment of the boy. The coroner was entirely satisfied that everything possible was done.

Mr. Sydney Silverman

In view of the answer my hon. Friend gave me a week or two ago about this matter of the representation of the parents at the inquiry, will he now say what facilities were afforded to the parents in advance of the inquiry to be represented at it, to attend it, to cross-examine and to call evidence themselves?

Mr. Dugdale

I regret to say that the parents were not invited to give evidence, and, as I said in my letter to my hon. Friend, we have laid down that in future relatives will be invited to give evidence on Naval Boards of Inquiry into deaths or accidents whenever it is expected that they will have information of value to contribute. In the past, that has generally been the practice, but we have now laid it down that it must always be the practice in future.

Mr. W. R. Williams

Who is going to decide whether the parents have evidence to contribute?

Mr. Dugdale

Quite obviously there are certain cases when they will and certain cases when they will not. If a boy were suddenly killed by a bomb falling on him in a ship, it is probable that the parents could give no evidence of any value; but if it were something, as in this case, connected with his previous life, they would have such evidence.

36. Mr. Attewell

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what degree of compulsion was used to get into the swimming bath the late 2nd Class Boy Gordon Lindsey.

Mr. J. Dugdale

The only form of compulsion used was to take the boy by the arm to the edge of the bath, when he either climbed down the steps or jumped into the water. This was done only when he was wearing a lifebelt.

Mr. Tiffany

Is my hon. Friend aware that on the last occasion when the boy entered the swimming bath it was at his own wish that he did so, and that he himself made a request in order to get the test done with? Does not this in itself show the necessity of hon. Members knowing the full details of this occurrence and thereby removing any injustice to all concerned?

Mr. Dugdale

The hon. Member is perfectly correct.

Commander Noble

Will the Parliamentary Secretary bear in mind that most difficult psychological problems can arise, and will he give an assurance that every care is taken over supervision and especially with regard to medical examination before the tests are carried out?

Mr. Dugdale

Yes, Sir.

Mr. Somerville Hastings

Can my hon. Friend say whether the whole of the facts of this sad case have been put before some competent psychologist?

Mr. Dugdale

Undoubtedly they have.

Mr. S. Silverman

Does my hon. Friend realise that it is precisely in order to do justice to everyone, and to get all the facts established, that it is so necessary at an inquiry to have everyone represented who has any interest in the matter, and to have all the witnesses called?