HC Deb 05 June 1947 vol 438 cc559-63
Mr. Vane

I beg to move, in page 103, line 14, to leave out "attach," and to insert "delegate."

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

I think it would be of advantage to take the next two Amendments together.

Mr. Vane

As the next six Amendments all hang together, would it be possible to discuss all six together?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

The last four Amendments have not been selected.

Mr. Vane

Although this Amendment is really the last on the Order Paper, I think it is very far from being the least. In fact, I think it is one of the most important we have discussed during these last two days. The Minister has just explained to us how he has implicit faith in the county executive committees, and if they do not work well, then the whole machinery of the Bill, I think he said, will fall to the ground. I suggest to the House that if the staff which is to serve these committees is not of the very best, the committees will not work and the advantages, if any, expected to accrue from this Bill will be very slender indeed. At the present moment it is provided that the staff of county agricultural executive committees and sub-committees shall be attached to them by the Minister. I can scarcely imagine a more curious method of appointment, because the members of the National Agricultural Advisory Committee, which I believe has to attach them to the executive committees, will find themselves in a most awkward position. They will be to some extent servants of the Minister and to some extent servants of the' executive committees. It is an old historic truth that a man cannot very easily serve two masters. Exactly what is the Minister expecting these most important technical persons to try to do?

We consider that the Minister should amend this Subsection so that the appointment follows one of two ways. The first is that he should delegate powers of appointment to the executive committees so that they can choose their own staff. We consider it quite unreasonable that they should be expected to employ the number the Minister might lay down for them, and beyond that they should have the appointment and removal of individuals. If the staff is attached to them by the Minister, they will not have freedom of appointment and removal. I believe there has been certain correspondence between the agricultural executive committees about the number of staff intended to be attached to them

Alternatively, we consider the principle of consultation should be adopted, and we desire that consultation should take place between the Minister and the county committees before any individual appointment is made, so that it is perfectly clear that persons employed by the committees are the choice of the committees as well as their actual servants. We consider it is most dangerous that this Schedule should be left in the form in which it is drafted. It is neither fair to the staff nor to the farmers whom that staff is expected to serve. They will have the dual functions of advising and executing, and also we can say, without exaggeration, a disciplinary function. They cannot help to build up the confidence we hope will rest in this service if they have to advise the farmer one day and next week have to appear on the farm in order to direct him. This is something which could be improved by a small Amendment, and I beg the Minister at this late hour to see our point of view, and perhaps break his record, which would be to the advantage of the whole industry.

1.15 a.m.

Mr. Baldwin

I beg to second the Amendment.

I feel sure the Minister is going to accept it, and I would like to remind him of what he said a few minutes ago, that we had not sufficient faith and confidence in the executive committees. Yet he has not sufficient faith in them to allow them to make their own appointments. I hope he will remember what he said, and give them this power of appointment.

Mr. T. Williams

Nothing would give me greater joy on the last Amendment, and on the last day of the Report stage, than to be able to say "Yes" to the hon. Member; but, unfortunately for both of us, appointments in the Civil Service can be made only by the Civil Service Commission, either for permanent or temporary posts. There is, therefore, no possibility of the Civil Service Commission allowing the county executive committees to appoint their own civil servants, and in particular that applies equally to the advisory staffs. The object of this Amendment is to insert a statutory requirement that the Minister shall consult the county committees, a point which was raised in Committee. I declared then, and I repeat now in all good faith, that, of course, we shall consult the committees about their requirements of staff, and the type and kind of person who will serve their interests best. But there is no need for a statutory requirement in the Bill compelling the Minister to consult his own agents.

The main argument, however, is a constitutional one. As the committees are the Minister's agents, it would not be proper to require him to consult his agents before he could make any appoint- ment or take any particular action. Moreover, the Minister is responsible to Parliament for the actions of the committees, and, of course, for implementing the Bill, and the choice of staff and the stationing of staff in the various counties is one of the important ways of ensuring the satisfactory administration of policy. A statutory requirement of this kind would derogate from the Minister's responsibility, since it implies that the Minister must accept the views of the committee unless there are overwhelming reasons against it. I repeat what I said in Committee, that I could not imagine appointing a person, say to Yorkshire, who had his foundations in Cornwall, or some other county where the farming conditions were totally different from the county in which he was to begin as an officer. It would be necessary to consult with the county executive committee about the type of person best suited to their purpose. I undertake that before appointments are made consultation shall take place, and that as far as possible we will try to appoint officers best suited to the purposes of the executive committees, and officers who will try and help the executive committee to produce the maximum efficiency in our farming life.

Captain Crookshank

The right hon. Gentleman is ending up the proceedings on Report true to form by making us one last assurance and putting nothing in the Bill; it has been the same old story during 25 meetings upstairs, and two days here.

Mr. T. Williams

It is at least consistent.

Captain Crookshank

But rather misguided consistency. I did not think he would not listen to this proposal. He says there is no possibility except of the Civil Service Commissioners appointing the civil servants, but why assume you have got to have civil servants? Why not employ the employees of the county agricultural executive committees? I think to that extent the Minister begged the question. They do not become civil servants because he is going to pay for them. It does not preclude him from letting the committees appoint their own staff because he is going to pay them salaries. Does he think it does? What happens about the Land Commission? They are themselves to appoint officers and servants, but the Minister is to pay them. Why cannot the same thing appear here?

Mr. T. Williams

Whatever servants the Land Commission will appoint, they will be appointed by the Civil Service Commissioners after consultation with the Land Commission.

Captain Crookshank

It does not say anything of the sort. We are to assume that. I do not see the difference in these two cases, but it would be taxing the Minister too much for him to give another assurance about that now. I think it is a pity he has taken that line, and that he would not find a way of delegating to the executive committees the opportunity of appointing their own officers and servants. However, he rejected that and refuses to put in the word "consultations", although he assures us consultations will be made before appointments are made. He says one cannot do it in the Bill, one cannot have consultations because the executive committees are agents, but he is going to consult them just the same. I do not see why one should not consult one's agents. They are outside bodies not directly under the Minister in the sense that his own staff is. They are a new hybrid breed. That might have been an occasion even for a Socialist Minister to make a precedent, but he sticks to the old method of giving one more assurance.

Mr. T. Williams

I will reply just to satisfy the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's curiosity. The persons to be associated with the county executive committees are persons whom we want to receive reasonable salaries and Civil Service pension rates. We want the right type of person and to get the job done reasonably well.

Captain Crookshank

I hope the right hon. Gentleman is not going to assume that I think the Civil Service salary is the one inducement by which he is going to get good men to work.

Amendment negatived.

Bill to be read the Third time upon Monday next, and to be printed [Bill 86].