HC Deb 14 July 1947 vol 440 cc149-59

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Brigadier Low

I should like to ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman a few questions on this Clause and I shall group them under three main heads, firstly, under British personnel in the Indian Armed Forces, officers and other ranks; secondly, a few points under Partition forces; and, thirdly, one or two points about the Gurkhas, who may or may not be covered by the phrase. "His Majesty's Indian forces."

In regard to British officers and other ranks serving with the Indian Armed Forces, as a result of a question which I put to the Under-Secretary of State a few weeks ago, it appears that there are something over 22,500 officers and men at present serving with the Royal Indian Navy, the Indian Army, and Royal Indian Air Force. It appears from Clause 11 (2,b), that after 15th August they will not be under the law governing the Indian Forces for Pakistan or India, but will be, I imagine, under the law and rules governing the British Forces. The men serving with the Indian Army, Navy or Air Force will, I imagine, be transferred by a stroke of the pen to equivalent service in the British Forces so that from 15th August it appears that in the British Army—I will omit the other two Services for the time being—they will come under the Secretary of State for War, who will be responsible for their pay and for laying down terms of service.

If that be so, I imagine that an arrangement will be made whereby this country can recoup the sum of money expended on these men serving with the Indian Army by treaty or some other agreement between the Governments concerned. In particular I imagine that special arrangements will have to be made to cover payments on leave, and any special payments that are made to British serving personnel that are not made to Indian serving personnel. I would like some confirmation on that point. I imagine that the present procedure will continue whereby men and officers can be posted from here to India without their consent. I see that under Section 179 (b) of the Army Act, no citizen of this country can be posted during a war to serve in the Dominion Forces without his consent, but the consent is not required in time of peace. I do not know the intention of the Government on that point.

Now I come to the question of partition. In "The Times" this morning, I see the proposals for the allocation of existing Indian regiments and Indian ships between the Dominion of India and the Dominion of Pakistan. I draw the attention of the Committee to a point which becomes clear when one reads those proposals. It is that because Pakistan will be much smaller in population and much poorer in economic and financial resources than the Dominion of India, it will not be able to maintain forces of the same size as the Dominion of India. At the same tin-Pc, the Dominion of Pakistan is faced with very much larger defence responsibilities, for the reasons which my noble Friend has already explained to the Committee, from the external point of view, than the Dominion of India will be. That is an example, if one is needed, of the wounding gash which the partition of India has made in the defence of India and in the defensive arrangements for the British Commonwealth as a whole.

Now I come to the third point, about the Gurkhas. I should like to know at once from the Minister whether the Gurkha soldiers are included in the term "His Majesty's Indian Forces"? It may be that the Gurkha regiments are at present part of the Indian Army. What the Gurkha soldiers are really doing is to serve His Majesty. Assurances have been given in the past that they will serve His Majesty only under British officers. I do not think the Government can deny those assurances. I have heard the claim put to the Government frequently across the Floor of the House that such assurances have been made, and the Government have never denied that the assurances have been given.

The position is that the existing Gurkha regiments are under an obligation to serve His Majesty, on the assurance that they are officered by British officers. I know that the whole future of this Gurkha regiment, as well as the future of the recruiting of Gurkha soldiers after 15th August—which I admit is another question altogether—is sub judice at the present moment. I believe that the Under-Secretary of State has told us that an emissary has gone out from the British Government to discuss this matter with the Ruler of Nepal and with the present Government of India.

I would like the Minister who is to reply for His Majesty's Government to give us some assurance that we will not force the Gurkha soldiers, who have enlisted in the service of His Majesty on the assurance that they will serve under British officers, to serve in future under Indian officers if they do not want to do so. I am making absolutely no comment on the relative merits of the two, but an assurance has been given, and if Gurkha soldiers do not wish to change their service and to serve under Indian officers, we have no right to force them to do so. If we are not prepared to have Gurkha regiments in the British Army, we should not force the Gurkhas to go into the Indian Army or the Pakistan Army if they do not wish to do so, but should allow them to return to their own country. These matters have been ventilated very frequently, but there is an opportunity here for the Government to give the assurance for which I have asked, and I hope they will be able to do so.

Commander Noble

My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Blackpool (Brigadier Low) has already referred to the division of the Armed Forces. I have one short question to ask about the Royal Indian Navy. We were told by the Prime Minister on 3rd April, 1946, in answer to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford (Mr. J. P. L. Thomas) and also in answer to a question in another place, that three cruisers of the Leander class were to be transferred to the Royal Indian Navy, the first probably in March of this year. I would like to know whether these three transfers have taken place or will take place, as no mention of them is made so far in the division of forces.

Mr. Wyatt

I would like to add one word to what was said by the hon. and gallant Member for North Blackpool (Brigadier Low) about the Gurkhas. It would seem at the moment to be a problem which ought to be left for those on the spot to solve. There are some very delicate balances to be struck as to whether Gurkhas want to serve under Indian officers as much as they want to serve under British officers, but this is one of the problems with which the Viceroy, as Chairman of the Defence Committee, will have to deal with Nepal and the appropiate Indian representatives on the spot. There can be no question of compelling the Gurkhas to serve under Indian officers if they do not want to do so. It would be quite impossible to make them do anything they did not want to do, as the hon. and gallant Member for North Blackpool well knows. If it comes out at the end of the negotiations—I hope it does not—that the Gurkhas as a whole do not wish to serve in the Indian Army, I do not think it would be at all improper for His Majesty's Government to consider, at some time in the future at any rate, embodying them in the British Army. I do not think that would give any offence to India, and it would be a very great help to us overseas.

9.45 p.m.

Brigadier Mackeson (Hythe)

The Prime Minister was very wise in his Second Reading speech when he suggested that the subject of defence should be left till the Committee stage. None of us would wish to make any remarks on the Second Reading or in the Committee stage which would give offence in India. However, I personally regard this division of the Armed Forces of India with very great sadness, and I believe it is one of the most unfortunate things that has happened, although in the circumstances it is inevitable.

I regard Dominion status as exactly equivalent to full independence and, therefore, I fully accept the fact that both India and Pakistan want their own Armed Forces, but in neither India nor Pakistan will efficiency be improved by dividing the Army, Navy and Air Force. The first thing needed is to defend the sub-continent as a whole; the second is the prevention of communal strife; the third is other incidental work in connection with duties in aid of the civil power. One of the great unifying things we have done has been to build up an Army in India with the assistance not only of British officers, but of Indian officers holding the King's commission. I know how sad many of them are that this decision has been made. One of the great efforts being made by U.N.O. is to try to get internationalism, and now, just two years after the war, we are to see one of the really successful inter-racial Forces split in two. But that is to be, and I want only to say how sad I am that it is to happen.

One question which will arise quickly is that of the supply of technical equipment and advice and the use of bases on the sub-continent of India. I do not think it would be fair to ask any Member of the Front Bench opposite to answer now, but I hope the leaders of India will realise that they are definitely not in a position to defend their country without assistance from someone, and I hope that the other Dominions, including this country, will be allowed to help, as we can produce the technical equipment and arms. There is one small point which perhaps the Minister who is to reply can answer, and that is whether any of the equipment, military, naval or air force, in Indian now is the property of His Majesty's Government or of the Indian Government. If any of it is the property of His Majesty's Government, presumably what shall be paid for it will be subject to negotiation. I believe that one of the great examples we have set in India is in keeping politics out of the Armed Forces. I hope and pray that our friends in India and Pakistan will be successful in keeping politics out of their Armed Forces.

Sir W. Smiles

Up to now on this Bill I have supported the Government, because I realise that conditions in India are very different today from what they were after the last war, but I believe that lines 20 to 22 in this Clause, providing for the division of the Indian Army, would mean murder and bloodshed in India. First, let us consider for a moment the composition of the Indian Army. I do not think anybody can be certain in which Army the Sikhs will be in the future, though I think the majority of them will be in the Indian Army. The Gurkhas have all been in the service of the British Crown, some of them from father to son, some from grandfather to grandson, or even from grandfather to great grandson. It is suggested now that they are not likely to serve under Indian officers. Perhaps as the hon. Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt) has suggested, they may and I hope they will be incorporated in the Imperial Armed Forces, but still I believe that with that tradition the Gurkhas will join in one of the new Dominion armies, either in Pakistan or India. They have the Rajputs., on the left, and they are certain to join the Indian Army. However, as well as internal order we have to consider invasion. I have read articles about Afghanistan joining up with the North-West Frontier Provinces. We had a war with Afghanistan as recently as 1919. I can remember when, about 1906, China went into a place called Rima, and we had to make strong threats to deter her, because at that time China was a united nation, and very different from what she is today. After all, if Alexander the Great was able to invade India without modern transport, others who wish to do so might do the same today.

U.N.O. has been mentioned, and I can remember the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus) in an earlier Debate, talking about U.N.O. in regard to India. All of us who were in Parliament before the war remember the efforts which were made for an international police force, and for amalgamation. It is certainly a tragedy that this Army is to be split in India. This opinion is my own, but curiously enough, it is exactly the same as that held by Mr. Gandhi. I have never before found myself holding the same opinion as Mr. Gandhi. should not have thought that in the war with Japan the best way to defeat them was non-co-operation, retiring to an Asram, manufacturing salt on the shore at Bombay, or working with a handloom. But I agree with him in this, that it is a tragedy that the Indian Army should be split. When in the past we were told that Singapore was impregnable, or that aeroplanes could not sink a battleship, one felt diffident about putting one's opinion against the experts on both sides of the House, but I believe that this Clause, particularly lines 20, 21 and 22 are going to wreck the whole Measure, and that within 20 years we shall see the greatest tragedy that has ever been seen in India's long history.

Colonel Clarke (East Grinstead)

I wish to ask what I believe is a fairly simple question about our regular serving Forces in India at present. I understand that they will shortly be transferred back to home establishment—

Earl Winterton

That is dealt with in the next Clause.

The Deputy-Chairman

The hon. and gallant Member for East Grinstead (Colonel Clarke) should raise that matter on the next Clause.

The Prime Minister

In regard to the point raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Down (Sir W. Smiles) I think everyone regrets the division of the Indian Army which has had a magnificent record in both great wars, and between the wars. Everyone regrets it; nevertheless, it is a necessary consequence of the setting up of two Dominions in India that there should be a division of the Armed Forces. I am afraid we cannot get over that. It is an inevitable incident of Dominion status. We all hope, of course, that there will be the greatest possible agreement between the two Dominions on defence matters.

The question about the Gurkhas has been raised. Gurkhas are recruited from the independent State of Nepal, and so far as we are concerned, negotiations have been taking place with authorities in Nepal, with the agreement of the Indian Government, because, of course, Nepal being inland, we need that agreement. The negotiations have been going extremely well. There is no attempt on our part to put Gurkhas under anyone whom they do not wish to serve, but I can assure the Committee that negotiations are proceeding, and officers are shortly going out from here to try to fix up the whole matter, because I think it is important that we should still have the use of Gurkha troops as in the past. In reply to the point raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Hythe (Brigadier Mackeson), some equipment will be taken back with our troops when they evacuate, and other equipment will remain within India. It depends upon to whom the equipment belongs.

With regard to the position of European officers who remain with the Indian forces after the appointed day, it must be understood that there is no compulsion whatever in this. They will be serving as volunteers, but the Commander-in-Chief considers it essential for the successful accomplishment of the difficult and delicate task of dividing up the Indian Navy and Army that the process of Indianisation, which has been going on at a great pace, should be slowed down to a certain extent, and that a proportion of British officers should be invited to stay on after 15th August. The terms of that service have been or will shortly be announced. During this continued period of service the officers will be formally transferred to the corresponding British Service, subject to British discipline Acts, but it is hoped that a goodly proportion of these officers will respond to the invitation and will help to steer India through this critical period of its history, and that they will have the powers of command of officers of their rank when they are serving with the Indian Forces. I hope that a great many officers will stay on, because the Indian Army has a great tradition. A tradition takes years to build up; it can be destroyed in a very short time. We hope that a good proportion of British officers will stay both with the Forces of Pakistan and the Forces of India, and help them during this difficult period of transition.

Brigadier Low

Is it not the case that on transfer from the Indian establishment to the home establishment these officers will lose their full rights to compensation under the terms of the White Paper which the Government published in April? Is it not possible that because more officers will be kept on now in order to fill the extra gaps there are, because we are now finding more officers in the Indian Army, some officers will become redundant after a given period with the progress of Indianisation, and will therefore be discharged from the British Army without compensation? Will the Prime Minister bear that in mind?

Sir R. Glyn

Will the Prime Minister say whether arrangements are being made by General Auchinleck in regard to assisting Pakistan with the establishments which the Dominion of India will possess, staff colleges, etc.? Will any assistance be rendered by His Majesty's Government in that way, and are there to be staff attaches, as in the case of the other Dominions, starting immediately with the Forces of the two Indian Dominions?

The Prime Minister

We shall give every assistance we can to the two Dominions, and will do everything we can to assist them in staff and other matters. In regard to the query by the hon. and gallant Member for North Blackpool (Brigadier Low), my impression is that we have safeguarded the position of all those officers who are staying on. Obviously, they ought to he indemnified if they stay.

Commander Noble

Will the Prime Minister answer my question about the cruisers?

The Prime Minister

The matter of the three cruisers was held up owing to the difficult position. Negotiations are now proceeding with regard to the Royal Indian Navy. I will let the hon. and gallant Member know when anything turther has been decided. Negotiations are proceeding with regard to the allocation of warships.

10. 0 p.m.

Mr. R. A. Butler

We should like to thank the Prime Minister for his statement on this subject. There is perhaps no other subject which is of so much importance at this time as this decision which, we agree must follow automatically upon the decision to divide India into two different parts. I seldom agree with Mr. Gandhi, and I do not appear to have the good fortune very often to agree with the hon. and gallant Member for Down (Sir W. Smiles). In this case I again disagree with him, so we all seem to be following our true and typical form. I should like to make the general observation that the fact that these two new Dominions are to be Dominions within the British Commonwealth of Nations is, I hope, a good augury for the obvious need which they will have to enter into understandings one with another on this vital question of defence. I trust that will be the implication of the fundamentals of this Bill which will come about in due course.

I do not want to press the Prime Minister or the Government tonight, but I presume that at a later stage the whole question of Imperial defence as such, which will be a matter of even more interest to the new Dominions than it is to us—even though it is a vital matter to us—will be considered and that it will form part of the general negotiations and talks which will precede the formulation of a treaty. I presume that to be the case but, whether it is or not, I want to mention that the general question of Imperial defence is one which will arise in due course and which must be ever in the mind of the Prime Minister.

The Prime Minister

That is very much in our minds. The right hon. Gentleman will realise that that must wait until the Governments are fully formed.

Mr. Michael Astor (Surrey, Eastern)

I have been talking to two officers in the Indian Army and I believe that what is happening is that if they wish to continue service in the British Army, they lose three-quarters of the compensation which is paid out by the Indian Government; also they forfeit their pension until such time as they qualify for it in the British Army. I think the tendency as a result of that is for the British Army to lose the officer altogether. I know that the view they take is that the risk was theirs in joining the Indian Army, but the compensation is the Government's.

Mr. A. Henderson

In the case of an officer of less than 20 years' service, which is the category eligible for transfer to the British Army, the emoluments, including pension rights, which they will receive as from the date upon which they join the British Army, have been worked out on an actuarial basis which results in their qualifying only for one quarter of the compensation of a man who leaves the Indian Army and does not enter the British service. One must take the overall result of that transfer.

Mr. Astor

Of course. They would be better off financially if they lived in "Civvy street" altogether.

Mr. Henderson

It is very difficult to know how well off they would be then because it depends upon the work they get and the emoluments they receive. As I have said, this has been worked out taking into account the pay and pension rights they will have as from the date upon which they transfer to the British Army. Under the scale which has been worked out, they are entitled to only one quarter of the compensation.

Mr. Astor

Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman assure me that they will be no worse off than the civil servants who are in a similar position? The compensation made in their case is slightly different and the Army feel that they are worse off than the civil servants.

Mr. Henderson

A difficulty arises there because the scale of emoluments paid, for example, to a member of the I.C.S. is pro rata higher than that paid to other categories

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.