HC Deb 21 April 1947 vol 436 cc675-9
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot

I beg to move, in page 7, line 34, at the end, to insert: Provided that the liabilities referred to by this Subsection shall be such as are reasonably connected with the individual property or properties being taken over. The point to which this Amendment is addressed was raised in Standing Committee, when the Secretary of State promised to examine it. He did not feel able to accept the proposal we originally put forward, because he thought it would be unduly restrictive, and we have, therefore, put forward a considerably modified proposal, The original proposal was that the liability should be connected with the actual endowment. The right hon. Gentleman said then that it would have been impossible to attach endowments to liabilities because, in many cases, there liabilities might not have been attached from the particular endowments in the legal sense. There is, no doubt, strength in that contention, but we do not think that the proposal set down here is one to which he could reasonably take objection. It is the purpose of the Secretary of State to maintain the practice of citizens taking an interest in, and subscribing to, endowments for hospitals. I think that they will be all the more tempted to do so if they feel that the endowment which they are giving remains—even if its purpose is to be changed—reasonably connected with the purpose which they originally put forward, and with the cause which they originally intended to support.

For instance, I think it not unreasonable that an endowment given for an ear, throat and nose hospital should not be used for the reduction of, let us say, debt on a children's ward, or a cancer hospital. That would be calculated to defeat the object which the right hon. Gentleman has in mind. Here, I think we have found a useful half-way house between the somewhat sweeping proposal first set down in the Bill, and the perhaps rather extreme Amendment which we on this side moved in Standing Committee. Perhaps the Under-Secretary can indicate whether he is likely to look with favour on this proposal?

Mr. Buchanan

I am sorry that we cannot see our way to accept the Amendment. We have looked at it—I hope not unsympathetically—but in this field we do not know the liabilities concerned. The Amendment would limit us, and we think that the Secretary of State ought to be left free in this matter. I agree that this Amendment modifies the position but it will, nevertheless, restrict us in this field.

Lieut.-Colonel Elliot

I merely asked the Under-Secretary for an indication of his views. I hope that what he has said will not be taken as the termination of my remarks. I am sure that that was not his intention—

Mr. Speaker

I thought that the Under-Secretary had made his speech in reply.

Lieut.-Colonel Elliot

If that were so then I am doubly fortunate, Sir, because I do not have to encounter the hon. Gentleman s powerful debating ability. When he says that we are moving here in the unknown, that is true, but it works both ways. He is moving here by way of giving inducement to people to support hospitals in the future, but he is moving in a field which is not so unknown as all that. If there is one thing we can say about Scottish hospitals it is that they are, on the whole, solvent. Scottish hospitals are under-built and over-endowed, as compared with English hospitals, which are over-built and under-endowed.

The hon. Gentleman is not taking a great risk, and it seems a pity that we should rashly write into this Bill words which undoubtedly will have the effect of discouraging people from giving assistance to a particular cause. Like it or not, it is reference to a particular cause which will most easily elicit support. Look at the ready response to the Fens disaster, and to the agricultural disaster fund. If you say, "Subscribe to the Government," how many people do you find writing handsome cheques in support of the Government—no matter what its complexion? There are a few people who leave conscience money to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or the residue of their estates to be applied to extinguishing the National Debt, but, on the whole, all that is regarded as a high degree of eccentricity. There are those who leave money to hospitals, or to a particular hospital in which they have received treatment. The late Mr. H. G. Wells, who suffered from diabetes, and who received great benefit from the insulin cure, devoted himself to obtaining subscriptions for the treatment of persons suffering from diabetes. We have heard of appeals at Christmas time for wireless sets for the blind. These are the sort of things which elicit support. But if the Government say, "We can give no guarantee. We are taking over all the liabilities; we shall take over all the advantages," then I say—

Mr. Buchanan

The right hon. and gallant Gentleman should remember that this is subject to a regulation, which can be debated.

Lieut.-Colonel Elliot

I might give the right hon. Gentleman a Roland for his Oliver by saying that he has behind him the Hospital Endowments Commission. He is not giving away very much, and if he gave us this he would still retain that powerful concealed weapon, which can review and revise. This Amendment says that in taking over the endowments of the voluntary hospitals and discharging the liabilities transferred to the Secretary of State, the Government should have reasonable regard, in using the surplus, to the purpose for which that surplus was originally devoted. The Secretary of State retains the advantage of the enormously powerful Hospital Endowments Commission which is a perpetual, and not a temporary, body to which he falls heir at a later date. If we cannot convince the hon. Gentleman about this I do not see how we can con- vince him of anything. I therefore beg him to consider whether, in another place, he might not find some words which would carry out the admitted desire of the whole House, that endowments should not be unreasonably or irrationally divorced from the original intention of the owners.

Mr. Buchanan

With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and the permission of the House, might I say that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has put forward a reasonable request? I will consult with my right hon. Friend on this matter, and we will look at it again between now and the consideration of the Bill in another place. Without giving any binding promise, I can give the assurance that we will consider it with an open mind.

7.0 p.m.

Lieut.-Colonel Elliot

With that very forthcoming proposal, which I agree is not a pledge but an indication to give this matter consideration between now and another place, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.